Since the end of 2025 we've been busy bee's getting February's viewing calendar ready for you!
Join us as we journey from idea to inception, shoot to design, canvas to story and beyond.

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Thank you so much.

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Each week brings a new companion story to devour.
Follow Morgaith's story of passion, creativity and sacrifice.

Beating that mid-week slump with speed-paintings and behind the scenes content of 'the making of'.
Finishing up with a gorgeous behind the scenes of photoshoot day.

To wrap up the whole month join author HB Clark, voice over actor Caitilin Sloan and myself.
We ask the questions that have been burning in our brains about each others process - to give you a true inside look at what goes into creating a project like this one.

Introducing this weeks creative,

Tabletop RPG Creator

Self confessed nerd and passionate creative Charlie talks about realising his childhood dream to write a book and how that spiralled into the well-loved RPG series; Shiver. In this episode he talks openly about the war between AI and creatives alongside the truth of creativity, the intricate programmatic language of role-playing games and the roots of storytelling and joy in his work.

(talking about playing Shiver with his brother and now business partner, Barney)
“…and he  read through it and he kind of sat there and I remember he post  looked up at me and he said, "When do  you want to make it?" And and I was like  I was like, "What do you mean?"
And and  so I didn't say yes initially, but he  kind of he was like, "Well, it's like  you've designed it. You're playing with  your friends and it's ultimately to be  frank. It's some I sell RPGs in my shop and it's something I've not seen before and I think it is a gap that you've  filled because you filled it by making  something that you want to play and you  love.   
So this seems like it could be really fun.”

Zoe - "what do you think little Charlie  would say about what you've created and  the job you do now?
What do you think?"

Charlie - I think he'd be be amazed. I I think  he'd be very happy... make a book - that would be cool and like  that was always a bit of a dream... now it's kind of circled back around  to it and I'm happy again... I think they'd be surprised  at what the books are.   I think I think that's that that's  that's the interesting bit.
They'd be  like, "Oh, I guess he writes story  books." Not not exactly like... Yeah. It's like a book that allows people to  tell their own stories through rolling  dice. And they'd be like,
"Oh, he's a  real big nerd, isn't he? Oh, no."

Z- I bet the first time you held one of  these in your hand was insane.  

C- When it's being published I teared up... I  always had a dream of being like one day  I'll have a book published like a hardcover book. It'll be mine. … t was very  emotional when they arrived.  And then I think there was another layer  of that where there's one thing where  you've like printed something and made  and you you're holding the finished item   and that feels really really good. 

(Talking about the work behind publishing an RPG)
If you're wanting to get to  published book territory or even like  published adventure territory or like  working for an RPG company, I think the  thing I'd like people to know most is  that they need to be prepared to wear  multiple hats and not be afraid of stepping into areas that they don't know that they're  uncomfortable in and try something  that's a bit different.

Especially if you're working solo  or in a small team, like sometimes you  just have to like suck out and just do  it and try it. I mean, I was working on  uh the first book and then the Gothic  books when I was still working um at the  university. I was like doing it in my  spare time and I taught myself In Design. Um in that time, I went on  graphic design courses. Um, I had chats  with people like in the graphic design  department like luckily about like  certain issues I was having to be very  sneaky. 

(Thoughts on AI)
C- Don't use AI and rely on that.  I'm gonna I'm gonna throw that out here  now.   

Z- Yeah. The creative people are here. We  we do charge money, but that's because  it's our job and we like to eat food and  keep a roof over our head.   

C- Yeah. And we'll get the number of  fingers right. It's like, come on.   

Z- I might not. So, I will forget to count.   

C- But yeah, in all in all serious, my frustration with AI. It's  interesting just as a note, um, the for people who don't know is that like role playing,  fascinatingly, is extremely anti AI 

AI generated stuff currently is lacking  is that because ultimately it's  throwaway. It's very immaterial. It's  kind of there and it's exist for a  second and we scroll past it. Whilst  really we should be investing in artists  who will make stuff that will become  somebody's favorite game that they play  every week or their favorite movie that  they watch every year at a certain time  of year because it reminds them of  something they love. Like that's the  kind of thing that we should be putting  investment into rather than stuff that  actively destroys that pathway and that  kind of content for people to actually  enjoy the game.

(On his job)
...the best things about our jobs is  that ultimately we are merchants of joy.  We are merchants of of fun of people  have sitting down getting together  around the table in person. 

The thing  that's important for me is that I'm  always telling stories and encouraging  other people to do so. And that's that  was the turning point.


Z- What's the biggest  challenge you faced in that project? So when you were creating Shiver?

C- Basically  having to  tussle with serious imposter syndrome  because I kind of had a very sudden  sharp route into the industry and was  suddenly like there doing shows and like  the book was published, it was out and  like being sold and I was like, "Oh."  And then It was all just quite a lot.  And I had that kind of feeling because  it's when something like that happens so  fast.  

(Talking about running a Shiver session as GM)
...you're encouraged not  to split up because of the way the balancing works (in DND). It's a horror movie.
(Shiver) I want you to die! Um, no, don't don't  tell the group I said that...

​Play amazing narrative-led horror stories with this award winning
easy-to-learn TTRPG. Whether you want a Slasher, a Horror-Comedy, or a
exciting action-adventure - let SHIVER power your tabletop tales.

If you are able to subscribe to me on YouTube - I would appreciate that so much.
​Thank you.

The Long YouTube Transcript :

C - I think they'd be surprised at what the  books are.   
I I think that's that that's that's the  interesting bit.
They'd be like, "Oh, I  guess she write a story book." It's  like, not exactly like-
Yeah. It's not  like a book that allows people to tell  their own stories through rolling dice  and they be like,
"Oh, he's a real big  nerd, is he? Oh, no." 

C - Good art or art that has kind of meaning  that's kind of made with people um  demands some element of your presence  like kind of what would you sacrifice to  be there like are you going to stand 10  hours in line so you can go see the  moment   later or you know go into the Sistine Chapel...

​Interview Starts
C-so I think you're leaving that in   

Z- 100% like the bit that I just did with  Curtis and me at the end being   

C- Yeah,   

Z- We're children children at heart.  Anyway, hello today everyone. I'm here  with Charlie Menzies and uh we're going to be doing our  lovely interview for four already.  Hopefully all going well. We have these  lovely little chinchilla looking  microphones today. So, we should be  sounding a lot better than we have for  the previous ones. But for anybody who's  here for number four, thanks for being  here. Um, I cannot wait to hear all  about this. It's something very  different today and I'll let Charlie  tell you all about it. Um, but for now,  let's start with what I normally end  with, which is where can people find you  if they want to hear more about you  beyond this?   

C- Absolutely. Um, so you can find us at  www.parablegames.co.uk.  GamesParable on X Twitter, whatever  the hell it is now. 

Z- I don't know. I don't have it.

C- Um, if  you search Parable games on Instagram and  Facebook, you can find us on there.
You  can find some under Shiver RPG as well to  have multiple pages for different  products, which I'll get into in a  minute. Yeah, but Parable Games is the  is the main search and you'll find this

Z- and they're really easy to find because  I tagged them in something the other day  and realized I wasn't following them!  So, then I followed them. I don't know  if you saw that. Okay, let's get  cracking.
Just let me find the questions  which are hopefully in your brain by  now, but they won't be in mine. I can't  remember anything.   Right. Question number one. Let's  start with number one, shall we? What is  your favourite project ever and why?
So  that can be project a game you created  just in general, even if something else  comes up in your brain that's not even  to do with this.   

C- So it's a tough it's a tough one to  answer and I wonder if you feel  similarly like this as a creative. It's  like picking between your kids.   I don't have an answer. I don't know.  Well, you know what I mean?

Z- Yeah.

C- I  don't know what I'm talking about.   That's right.   

Z- He does have one child, but it's got  four legs-  Bear.

C- Yeah. But who is who is number  one? He would get picked over  everything. But but yeah, no, in terms  of like picking between projects, each  one has  something very different to it that  scratches a different part of my brain.  But if I had if I had to pick one, I'd  say it has to be Shiver because it was  the project for me that kind of changed  the course of my creative journey  entirely into a completely different  field, different career, different life.  So, so yeah, so it would be that one. It  is my baby still is very much the one  that is kind of like it was the first  kind of main one that has spiralled up  and so everything. So yeah, have to say.

Z- Excellent choice as well  because I can actually say I have played  Shiver how many times now?   

C- Two. We're in the middle of the second  campaign.   

Z- I think three.   Three.   Oh, wait. No, because did   we did the we did the dinosaur one and  now we are doing the   Did you do

C- Did you not do the submarine  one?   

Z- No.   

C- Oh, that was amazing.

Z- Yes. Anyway, but  yes. So, so yeah. Yeah. Two times but  multiple sessions of each, isn't it?  That's always the weird bit I have to  get around in my brain of being like, is  it sessions? Is it stories kind of like  how we I know because this one's going on for like three sessions now. Um how I would  describe it before you do is a much more  accessible way of playing like a D&D  what are they called when it's a shorter  version a short campaign. It is so much  fun and like the it's not so much about  the numbers and things like that. It's  all about the story and the dice are so  much easier to use and things seem to  move a little faster and it's a little  bit more um creative. Even though D and  D can be really fun, it can also be  quite overwhelming because I've played D  and D found it that way.   

C- For any non- nerds out there watching  this, D and D and D is Dungeons and  Dragons. Um a very famous fantasy role  playing game. Um and that is what I'm in  the business of making is role playing  games. Um I I have also done this in the  past where I start talking  realize oh wait not everyone is coming  at this from an angle of knowing role  playing games but I think my playing  ship you played some Dungeons and  Dragons already  like it does feel like you and their  friends have very much fallen quite  heavily into the hobby which is really  love to see but it's a really common  thing that it's a bit of a as a hobby  it's a bit of creative gateway drug to  gaming in general.

Z-I would say  especially for anyone with a theatre  kid background.

C- You got me.   

Z-I got him. Yeah. So, yeah, thank you for  turning into what I needed to say, which  was, yes, DND stands for Dungeons and  Dragons, which is a table top game. I  just got so into talking about it,  didn't even realize that I was using the  lingo. Um, so yeah, that is what Shiver is in in essence and it's your baby and  your creation and it's incredible. So  give us a kind of  overview of Shiver in general apart from like that's what it is but like what  kind of things does it cover because I  know you've got like nine 10 how many?   

C- It would be the more recent book gets  finished and published it will be 10 I  think roughly. Um but yeah, so Shiver is  a horror role playing game. Um so really  kind of what the game is is this. It is  a book. It is a book that gives you  rules um in order to play a game on the  table top with your friends where one  player takes on the role of the  director. Um in Dungeons and Dragons it  would be the dungeon master for example,  but it's someone who's running the game  and telling the story.

Z- Yeah.   

C- Um your players are playing in that  story and inhabiting characters making  decisions. and when they make decisions  and especially try and do tough things,  they have to roll dice to determine what  happens. So for Shiver, um this took my  love of horror movies and I kind of  thought, what if I tried recreating that  feeling of inviting your friends over  for a horror movie night and you're all  kind of, you know, sitting around with a  popcorn, but you play in the movie?  Because I'm a massive horror fan and I  get really sick of people who are a bit  down on the genre going, "Oh, yeah, I'd  survive that." Yeah. No, they make  really dumb decisions. And it's the  thing as soon as you put players at the  table, as I think you've probably  experienced, you put a little tiny bit  of pressure on them. The the terrible  decisions come out of woodwork. They're  everywhere. And it's a really  fascinating thing to play  around with. Um, and kind of on the flip  side of that, I also wanted to make a  role playing game that was more  accessible as well because I started  playing Dungeons and Dragons and that's  what I was kind of doing for as well as  Cthulhu and some of the other like the  various like big ones. Um, and a lot of  my players really struggled with  numerical dice.
So, we kind of went down  a different route with it to make using  symbol dice. The rules are very kind of  light and easy to kind of get into, but  there's a lot of depth to how you can  kind of play. That is definitely how I  describe it as well because just because  it's light, it doesn't mean that it's  not got that depth and it doesn't mean  that it's not um gripping and like  exciting. Like there's still so much to  it, but it's so much easier to play  because you get to   you're not bogged down in a lot of the  weight of I should be better with words,  but not bogged down by the weight of all  of these rules and like I don't know.  Well, well, I think really kind of what  you're doing there and actually you're  kind of almost calculating  and trying to figure out it's like,  okay, how do I explain like the massy  element of the pluses and minuses of to  an audience   ultimately that's the problem. So, when  you're at a table, so the whole point of  Shiver is basically you're playing a  horror movie with your friends. That's  the whole point.   And in a horror movie, if the characters  suddenly pause and be like, "Right,  okay, right. I'm going to swing my axe.  I'm going to hit the zombie in the head  and hopefully I'll kill it. Otherwise,  it might eat me."

Z- Right. Okay.

C- Okay, so  now I just need to get out this table  and it's plus two here. It's a minus  thing and do the cross division here and  all of a sudden the tension is it's  gone. It's it's evaporated.   

Z- I'm back in like year 10 maths having a  terrible time.   

C- Exactly. And I think for a lot of my  friends that's where they were going.  And then and that's kind of how this  started was basically a homebrew system  that I played with a bunch of my old  screenwriting friends from my course and  like kind of been ding when I was still  living down London and just did it as a  way like we don't have that much time.  We're quite busy. They're bouncing off  of this rule set. You know, I'm I'm  enjoying it. Let's make something that's  really really fun. And basically we  played that for a year before I even  showed it to anyone else like in a  group. Yeah.   

Z- That's amazing.   

C- Yeah. So So Shiver was just like a thing  that I did with friends for as just like  a a fun a fun creative thing. I never  really considered it   um anything until like a very key point  and then that kind of that's what it  kind of evolved into something else from  there. Yeah.   

Z- Amazing. I think that'll probably fit  into one of the other questions. So this  might build on that. What's the biggest  challenge you faced in that project? So  when you were creating Shiver because we  all talked about how good it is and this  and that. What's the biggest challenge  you faced?   

​C- Oh Christ, there's so many.  It's so for a bit of context is I before  designing this game, I was in the film  and TV industry. That's where I kind of  started where my love of like horror and  stories and kind of like cinematic  storytelling generally came from. Um,  and I always thought like that's kind of  where I was going to be going. So, it  was really interesting moving into an  entirely new sphere. Um, and basically  having to  tussle with serious imposter syndrome  because I kind of had a very sudden  sharp route into the industry and was  suddenly like there doing shows and like  the book was published, it was out and  like being sold and I was like, "Oh."  And then It was all just quite a lot.  And I had that kind of feeling because  it's when something like that happens so  fast.   

Z- Yeah.   

C- And you completely pivoted from some  from another creative field. Um and  suddenly that is kind of gaining  traction when there have been people  there who've been you know working in  that industry for like kind of 10 years.  And it was a very strange thing for me  to pass that like I was I was here I was  doing well like people enjoying what I  was making even though fundamentally it  was the first thing I'd ever made that  was a game and I think that was that was  a big one especially with the sugar core  rule set   was like I' i'd never I'd never done  anything like that before and it was  kind of a bit of a hail Mary kickum  we'll probably get into kind of a later  the actual history of it. But yeah, no  kind of like tussling with am I actually  a professional? Do I belong to be in  this space? Do I belong to be do does my  stuff belong in stores? Like like kind  of like people are paying this something  I've made on the regular and playing it.  And it is this kind of interesting thing  of like being very proud of the thing  that you've made.   Yeah.   But it kind of being because it's the  first one, it kind of being like it's  got to be a fluke. like it's like  something something's not quite right  and that has faded. It's always still  there like a little bit. And I think the  other thing as well I will say about the  role pack in general is it's generally  an older  space like in in terms of um like kind  of more I mean like DND was late ' 80s.  So you have much older longer  established country um companies um and  products as well product lines. to me  like D and D obviously like kind of  being one of those but like poor Cthulhu  which is probably one of our biggest  competitors and a game that I absolutely  love um from Chaosium is very much kind  of in that and it was like kind of like  entering in where you know you've got  these basic games that are   straight in with the big dogs basically.   

Z- Yeah.

C- And these and these games are like  you know this is like first edition of a  thing I've never made before and then  you know you're going up against  something like which is on its eighth  ninth edition like Yeah. 89th edition  now though.   Well, we're still first edition, but  it's   but but yeah, and I think it's a really  important thing to talk about because I  think a lot of don't that like you  always have that little voice inside  your head. Oh, maybe it's just me.   

Z- Definitely not.

C- It's not  that like I  even even the world and the people the  product itself is saying is like this is  good everything is fine   if you don't feel  like internally like you've proved  yourself enough in that arena.   

Z- Yeah.   

C- Um there will be that that that anxiety  that's that's doubt that's there that  kind of handing that can kind of happen.  But um and then it turns out the way to  get past that was just to keep  publishing more books which is what we  did. So it's it's definitely faded. Um  but there's there's always like you know  when you try something new so for  example actually here. So um so like I  branched into solo role playing games  with don't play this game. I started  designing it a couple of years ago and  and that kind of got released and that's  that been really well received. It was a  was a very tough book to write. Um but  in terms of that it definitely awoke  solution to being like although it's a  role playing game   it's in a very very different sphere  role playing games it's designed for  singular person to play and be a very  personal experience which is very  different design ethos so so yeah again  with lots of people proving in that  space so so yeah imposter syndrome  that's that's what I would say   side quest question yeah slash statement 

Z- I bet the first time you held one of  these in your hand was insane   

C- When it's being published I teared up.  Like it's so   so like as a kid and and it's  interesting because it's something that  faded away a little bit more of that. I  always had a dream of being like one day  I'll have a book published like a hard  cover book. It'll be mine. It'll be  something I've written and it'll be  done. Um and that kind of like faded  away a bit when I kind of went to film  being oh I'm going to be like directing  a film when I'm 30. Like kind of like  like that energy kind of went more that  way. Um when it turns out that actually  um Kids Charlie was was more realistic. 

Z- Um he he knew what was up.

C- He knew he  knew what was where I should have been  going. But but yeah, no, it was very  emotional when they arrived.  And then I think there was another layer  of that where there's one thing where  you've like printed something and made  and you you're holding the finished item   and that feels really really good.   It's a whole different thing where you  go into a shop where you go and buy  other things that you will go like so  like traveling man for example in the UK  go to get like novels and things like  that and going traveling man for the  first time   and seeing on shelf.

Z- Yeah.   

C- Like in a way it was-  I couldn't I couldn't quite-   Yeah. Put it together and it was really  lovely of seeing a load of my friends  who are also as well around the UK just  being like oh sh- they show me where it  was popular as we went into distribution. So,  so yeah, I'd say like that was that  two-tier thing of like getting the  physical thing is always really magical  like the first time around and it is  every with every project that we do, but  seeing it seeing it in shops, it's  definitely three-fold. It's you get the  physical thing yourself,   it's seeing in shops, but the real magic  is where you go into shop and you see  yourself being played   that or you go to a convention and you  see it being played.   Oh my god. Especially when it's being  played, it's not being run by you for a  change because it invalidates that  element of being like,   "Oh, it is like someone else can do it."   Especially the fact that I've run it for  a year just for my mates. It gets out of  that thing of like I'm just making more  friends and just running this for more  people and spreading it like in a really  slow grassroots way, but it's kind of  when you go to conventions and be like,  "Oh no, there's like   somebody is saying your name outside of  a room that you're not in."   

Z- Exactly. but they're playing your game  outside of a room that you're not in and  it's going well.   

C- Yeah, it's mad. Like it's crazy. Like  like it's it's a it's a very strange  feeling. And I said a new a recent one  with this one because it's a over the  past year or so is um translations.  That's another one is seeing proofs and  books of something you've written in a  completely language and being played by  people in other countries in a language  that's not not your own is yeah wild.   

Z- That's incredible. I love that. Thanks  for that extra question in there. Um okay so to a little bit I like this  question because I think everyone has  those hard days but how do you push?  There's two questions and there's a  knowing when to stop one's coming next.  But the first one is how do you push  through on a hard day when everything  sort of stacks against you but you need  to push through. How do you push  through? What do you do?   

C- Oh, it's a it's a mixture of things. I'd  say I'm very much a if I'm feeling  overwhelmed with a lot of stuff going  on, which quite often there is with  projects that we're doing.   I'm a big fan of lists. I'm a huge fan  of lists. So, I'm breaking things up  like day by day.
So then I can kind of  because I think it's if you're feeling  overwhelmed on that day, it's not just  about what's there on that day. It's  about what's all around it. I get that.  So to tell me what I tend to do is like,  okay, if today's really overwhelming,  the rest of the week is probably feeling  just as bad. Yes. If I don't get a  handle on it. So if I don't have a  handle on it already, I'll sit down,  I'll make lists of like everything that  I need to do, actually think about  prioritization.
Now that we've grown a  little bit, I actually start thinking  about delegation. I never used to do um  and now kind of getting a lot more used  to but being like okay that is actually  work I can let go I don't need to do  don't m about it spread the work out   um and yeah and then just kind of making  those lists individually for each day of  like kind of what I feel needs to be  done   and then I do the reality pass as I kind  of call it where I be like actually what  can I physically get done in a day  because I   overestimate   I I am terrible for it. I will  overestimate all the time and then be  will be disappointed when I don't hit  all the targets.   But when someone says, "Oh, Charlie,  what are you doing today?" And you list  all of these things. They go, "Wow." And  you're like, "But I'm not done.   I'm not I'm not done." And it's not  exactly what I wanted to do. That was on  my list.   And and and there is the the sharper  edge of lists as well, like if you don't  balance them correctly, is that actually  it's just  slightly too high, uneven, wobbling  towers of stuff.   Yeah.   Um so you have to kind of make those  split those towers up as much as you can  and recognize when one is still wobbly  and then take stuff out of that and give it to somebody else. Put it into next  week. Move the deadline. Have that have  those have those more difficult  conversations that do make you feel  uncomfortable but need to happen.   Yeah. If you especially if you're  working in a team in in a if you're  working in a solo regard um cut cut  yourself some slack like like just give  give yourself a break if if you're  working for a client have a chat with a  client I used to do client work all the  time quite often with some clients  especially the bigger ones they ask too  much and too short of time frame so it's  kind of catching it early on great but  obviously making those assessments and  having those discussions I think is  super important but yeah you just have  to be in tune with what your capacity is  and how you manage that capacity. And  that can be lists, um, it can be kind of  like calendars. It it can be kind of  however you want to kind of break stuff  up. Um, and also the other thing of how  I get through a hard day is that when I  break up little tasks, when I complete a  task, I give myself some form of a treat  because ultimately I am I am a small  Labrador like Like but that the weird  thing is is that like I think people  being like that kind of idea of like  treat culture.   It's it's not what everybody thinks.  It's not like you know I'm coming down  having a pat of chocolate like every 20  minutes when I do like one tiny thing.   It's more like sometimes it can be like  I'll come downstairs and I'll make a cup  of tea. Needs to do many stay hydrated.   Or it's like I'll just pop outside for  10 minutes and go for a short walk  around the block. Treat   like some would say life maintenance and  health. things you should be doing  anyway. I say free.   If you restructure them as treat in your  brain, that's like a double whammy.   Exactly. So you get a dopamine hit for  being a treat and then you're actually  just doing something sweet anyway. So  yeah, it so and I think that is a really  healthy way to kind of balance yourself  when you get  how can I kind of put this when because  this is something very specific for me.  When you get hyperfocused in on  something   Yeah. and everything else fades away.   Of like to remember that you're still a  being that has physical needs.

Z- Correct.   

C- Yes. Who should who should eat, have a  shower, go for a walk, see the see the  sun, like it's   before it goes down.   Before it goes down, which in winter is  the worst. So So yeah. So So I think it  is remembering all of those things. So  yeah,   I definitely know that one because now  it's getting darker as well. My desk  face is a wall. So sometimes I turn  around them and I'm like, "Oh my god,  he's got no."   Yeah.   Miss it.   So yeah. So lists and treats, brackets,  taking care of yourself, but disguising  it as don't mean hit.   

Z- Yeah.   Perfect. So how do you know when you've  hit the point where you're like, I need  to take a break? And I mean like you can  take that however you will, but I think  it's more I'm meaning more of like a  whoa there, horsey. I need a break for  either an hour or week. How do you know  what are the signs for you?   

C- It it can vary in the different ports of  work that I'm doing. Um when it's like  editing and layout work.   Yeah.   It's when I feel a mounting frustration  and like I'm teaching on the edge of  anger at something. If I feel angry at  the work itself,   yeah,   then that's a sign I need to just take a  step back because I'm just too  irritated. like and usually it's because  Adobe's crashed or like you know  something's not working the way it  should do.   Yeah.   Um or in some cases you know there's  like a lot of mistakes or something that  haven't something unseats you and and  that frustration can build   and the thing that you don't want to do  is basically find yourself at war with  your own creation.

Z- Yeah. Because it's  not healthy. So usually at those points  I try and have walk away and have even  if it's just 10 minutes come back at it  and just be like right this is what  we're going to get done for the rest of  the day.   I think it was beautiful.   

C- Thank you.   

Z- At war with your own creation.
Oh your  words you and segways nice onto writing. 

C- Writing is a bit different. So writing I  rarely get frustrated or angry at the  part I probably enjoy the most.   Um  with writing it's more like um  So it's not right writer's block in the  way that I think people think writer's  block is. So  this is another this is another pet  peeve of mine I think in terms of how  people actually perceive like what  writer's block is. So so I think for  some people when they think writer's  block is like I can't write a single  word like you know every single source  of words has been blocked up and I can't  put anything paper writer block is  actually different. write book is like  you put stuff on page you're like no  that delete it you write again it's  be like no not quite right there and you  get stuck in like an edit loop on like  sentence and at that point it's like  this isn't working yeah   or like the other type that I tend to  have sometimes when there's a lot going  on or I'm stressed I'm over tired um is  the ideas are there they're in my head I  can see them but getting them from here  onto a page in written form  is like pushing trial through a  millimeter whip pipe. Like it is awful.  It is there. There is a mental pain to  kind of trying to   push through that. And sometimes with  that that is a I set myself a very small  goal of like if that is getting really  painful then I go down like you know I'm  going to get 500 words done.   

Z- Yeah.

C- And actually just because  sometimes my method and I think some  people will disagree with me on this is  that like I set a small achievable  target. I push through to get those  words out in any shape that I can.   Yeah.   Have a break. Come back here it be like  oh Jesus Christ that's not exactly what  I mean. Okay. and and then and then  rewrite it like like fundamentally but  you need to  for me anyway I shouldn't say different  but like I feel I need to push through  and get a certain amount of what's in my  brain out um because it there is a  similarity with  the way I like to kind of think about  the brain is like um   it's if you've ever seen like overhead  maps of LA and the absolute rat's nest  of roads  than it is.   So, the way that I kind of think about  my brain is like that. It's endless  amounts of roads with lots of little  cars rushing around all the time, all  kind of and they're all different ideas.   And the thing is is that you kind of  need to be your own traffic controller  because if all lanes of traffic are  open,   it's chaos. It's too noisy. Um that your  mind gets polluted. um uh it gets jammed  up like because ideas can collide. Um  and it's I'm not talking about like just  ideas in terms of like you know like oh  yeah I've got processing and a character  and then this. It can be that but it's  also like if you're thinking about I  need to prepare for a convention, I need  to email this person. I need to do this.  I need to do that.   Um it kind of that's that is all aims of  traffic open.
So for me is one of the  things that I do and I've now some  people on my team because I think they  very similar to me um is I establish  what I call focus days. Um so it's where  I kind of set like okay the way I'm  going to do it is or focus weeks. I'm  going to be working predominantly on  this.   I will do small admin tasks and have  like admin hours on set days and then  just I say to the rest team this is how  I'm working at the moment. Um if  something is on fire call me that's  fine.
Like if it's a genuine mer you  really struggle doing that's okay but  generally don't be like  is the bane I think of any creative is  the um can you just the can you just  request like can you just do this   but what cost   yeah can you just do this and it's going  to take an hour half of your time and um  so so the way we talk about in the team  because of I'm spot my brother we have  other director Matt who's joined us and  I had a big chat them actually about  because I've kind of managed a creative  team.   I think this is a a general thing as  well is it's about gear shifting of  that. Um for me like if I can spend a  whole day writing I know I'll get a good  amount done.   Um if I only have three hours to write  and then I need to gear shift into  layout for two hours and then deliver  something and gear shift into emails and  then the expectation is that I need to  gear shift back into writing to then  finish up what I had. that last gear  shift is going to be like and that's  where that's where we're back to we've  gear shifted you know we've merged into  lanes all of the traffic coming in  traffic coming in traffic coming in but  we're not saying no no more writing  states we're shutting off that lane of  traffic   um it's rush hour   it's rush hour and that's and that's  when you get jammed up and that's and  that's where things get too noisy it  gets too polluted and then ultimately  nothing gets done because you get  gridlock and that's what happens   

Z- Incredible metaphors. I am a sucker,  like absolute sucker for a visual  metaphor for something. A wordmith,  right? Number five. What made you say  yes   or what made you say no that made you  say yes?   Um because you talked about going from  film into making games.   It might not be a singular thing, but  what is it that made you say, "Yeah,  that's I'm going to do it. I'm just  going to do it."

C- This mixture of things.  I'd say I'd be very remised to mention  my not mention say my brother Barney of  that shiver I was playing you know with  my friends and stuff and and my brother  for context so he kind of lives up  around where I now live kind of around  like Nottingham share and then he owns a  friendly local gaming store so doing  like Warhammer trading card games that   what's it called I'll link it   uh seven city collectibles in San Diego  Um but yeah, he um he's been from  university he kind of discovered his  love of games like massively   and has kind of been in that world like  on the business side for a really long  time um from a very early age as well.  And I was kind of like and and and  played role playing games and stuff as  well. So when I made I had it all in  this like sprawling notebook with  sketches and various things. So I like  had all the old sketches of the symbols  for the dice and things like that   and I kind of brought it up me and came  for Christmas basically and I thought oh  you like games I actually made a game  it's just been like maybe to play it  like sometime and showed him it and he  kind of sat down and we had like a I  seem to remember Barney having like a  whiskey having a whiskey out just like  we're in our early 20s at this point you  know   that's cool and   now we're drinking coffee   fish  trying desperately to make sure we for  saw blazer.
Um but yeah, no. Um and he  read through it and he kind of wing kind  of sat there and I remember he post  looked up at me and he said, "When do  you want to make it?" And and I was like  I was like, "What do you mean?" And and  so I didn't say yes initially, but he  kind of he was like, "Well, it's like  you've designed it. You're playing with  your friends and it's ultimately to be  frank. It's some I sell RPGs in my shop  and it's something I've not seen before   and I think it is a gap that you've  filled because you filled it by making  something that you want to play and you  love.   So this seems like it could be really  fun. I can help. Do you do you  want to give it a whirl?   
So I went Yeah. So So then Barney got  more involved and he used to be like a  competitive like gathering player like  like no obviously knows all of these  rule systems. So when it came to like  W's writing, I could get a semblance  down of kind of what I wanted and get it  quite far, but then Barney was then  there as kind of like a major editing  force on the initial kind of pass  turning into a proper rule book, we'd be  like, okay, so we need to talk about  keywords, for example. So when we talk  about something mechanical that happens  repetitively throughout the game, we  need a capitaliz word that repeats  itself throughout the book. That's in  the glossery that's here. And and it was  like, okay, but yeah, because like in  trading card games that's a huge thing  of like um   you know you know what charge means you  know what I'm trying to remember Magic  the Gathering terms now I can't because  I  -

Z- I can only think of like Baulders Gate  ones now.   

C- Yeah but yeah no but it's yeah like  knowing those status effects knowing  those things like because um because  ultimately what you are doing and this  is where the kind of the bit that  surprises me in terms of how my brain  works and actually adapting to this  quite well I feel is it's a programmatic  language. It's kind of what you're  doing, but you're trying to make a  programmatic language palatable to  people in a book format. Because  ultimately, like in a video game,   um you can pull back that programmatic  language really, really far by reducing  it down to a simple series of inputs, decision points.

(The camera changes)

Z- There we go.   So, if anyone's noticed, not if you're  listening to it as a podcast, you won't  know, but if you are watching it on  YouTube, you will now see that the  quality of the camera has gone up  because I haven't gone to borrow Dale's  phone because I filmed mine with videos  of random other art. So, what we're  going to do is to go seamlessly back  into that wrap up talking about um the language of I forgot what we call...

C- So,  so like with the language of like games  like this, it was um we're talking about  like programmatic language which is kind  of like rules language um and how like  in video games for example, a lot of  your stuff is role playing games that  stuff's hidden and is produced down into  basic inputs and your game engine itself  is doing all the calculations. In the  case of this, like your GM becomes that  your whoever is running the game kind of  has that element, but the players do  take like you kind of form a game engine  together um in terms of how you interact  with it, but then you have the the base  language that you're all speaking  through is that   it's really nice to see someone do a  dice roll and you're not going, "What  does that mean?" like this dice rolls  and you see the colors or you see the  symbols and everyone reacts after a  while and you don't always get that with  roleplay games but with this one in  particular you see that and you're like  oh my god three keys too strange it's  great and it's got it own language and I  love that   it was a big thing with like yeah  symbols and color there's a in the in  the rule book I call it rolling the  knuckle bones because it's that's what I  wanted to happen of being   to feel like that mad stoop cone in a  cave throwing crab bones down and being  bad marriage.  It's bad marriage. Yes. It's just  horror. It's it's and doing that. And I  think it's it's always more interesting  when other people can read, understand,  and interact other people's dice roles.   And that that is basically the it's like  what we're talking about like with  tension. Like when people are doing  maths, tension is dead.

Z- Yeah.   

C- Um when people are looking at a dice  pool realizing the consequence of that   straight away.   Straight away um the tension is  maintained and if not ramped up because  the consequence is immediate and in  shiver there's elements mechanically  that impact story. So in terms for me  that's where the special source of  design is for me in game design is where  you're taking stuff that is more on the  mechanical side and like having it  interact with story and player  narrative. So for the best example like  was the Doom Clock.   

Z- Yeah.   

C- So so like in shiver basically you've  got like a fist full of dice. The better  you are the more dice you roll. Um and  all the dice have different symbols on  them. Um one of them is a purple eye  with the shiver s on. It's called  strange strange symbol. Um so unless  you're actively looking for that dice if  you roll and you fail um you count up  the number of strangers in that pool and  you add it to the doom clock which is 60  minute clock. Um we're at 15 minute  markers. bad stuff happens.   

Z- You say that in game as well. Like bad  stuff is gonna happen and we're like oh no.   

C- And I think to to quote Harriet and be  like what's going to happen? It's like  I'm not going to tell you because that's  not how horror movies work. It's it's  like the whole point is the whole thing  that maintains attention is that you  don't know. you just know that these  markers   that are ultimately met by  and sown by the your own actions and  failures um that is going to be a direct  result of that and and I think that is  the big thing where it's um with any RPG  or kind of game the thing you're looking  at is if we're going to go more in the  code programatic languages you're  looking for input and output or your in  the way is is um player decision  should always lead to consequence and it  is always more satisfying when it is  narrative consequence that keeps the  momentum of the story moving forward in  an interesting way.   The last thing you want to have is you  rolled a 10. What does a 10 mean? I  don't understand. I'm going to do some  math now. Um 10 is actually well it's  not great but it's not bad. You don't  succeed. What do you want to do next?  Um, it literally takes the- And I think  that's where a lot of people bounce off  of D and D. And don't get me wrong, like  there is a reason D&D has been the  market leader for like a long time. It's  fantastic. It's fantastic.

Z- It's  fantastic.

C- It allows you to do so much.  Um, it I I personally feel like on a  book level, it struggles on the roleplay  side of it. And it is very much a very  comprehensive compact like in a lot of  ways. um and has a lot of other  interesting stuff that's in there and a  lot of meat for people to sit their  teeth into and is extremely modular and  I think that is the thing that a lot of  people on the game side really really  enjoy because they can hack it to pieces  and do what they like with it.   Um some points to absolute death. Um I'm  in a group called begging you to play  another RPG. Um, but that is a real  that's a big side quest that I'm not  going to right now because of the amount  of jokes that people make about being  like, "But couldn't you just do that in  fifth edition Dungeons and Dragons?"  It's like, and to quote Dr. Ian Malcolm  from Jurassic Park, it's like you could  and you thought so long about the fact  that you could that you didn't actually  think about whether you should and maybe  you should. Try an indie game or another  game and play something different.  People, come on.   

Z- Did you Did you plan to say this or ?

C- No, that's- No, that's how I feel about  it. like good god like it's it's a  constant  battle for other designers of being like  D and D is there in space. D and D is is where it is in the space  for a reason the way that players  respond to it react to it and develop  very strange loyalties to certain  elements can sometimes be very baffling  very frustrating. Um but it is  ultimately something that we kind of  like have to deal with as designers  because it is there is And I think it's  really interesting if you're working in  a creative space is that you don't have  a lot of creative spaces this very large  totem pole near monopoly force. Yeah.  That's kind of in the middle of it. Um  as like a as a semi genesis point as  well. I tangented hard there. No, I love  it. Too close to the sun.
Yeah, but to but to wind it back,  the the issue that you run into with con  um basically player input leading to  consequence that has narrative momentum  and drive to it is just that is that um  it's twofold of D and D. It's what does  a 10 mean? Like literally num numbers  unless it's a one or a 20, it means  nothing to people like because that's  how people It's like, "Oh, I fell really, really badly. Oh, I did really  really good." And that's people's brains  are very binary when it comes to that  element. Um because numbers I think  don't especially because it's a data set  from like 1 to 20 is actually in terms  of role play is pretty large. like it's  that gradual things you know like you  know it's like if I got 10 or an 11 like  what's the difference between 10 and 11  like you start to get into those  stepping things of like how do you make  a judgement and and generally it's like  unless it is like a very specified rule  generally it is up to the GM to just  decide yeah   um which is totally fine and it and it  gives you a lot of flexibility in many  many ways but numbers don't speak to  people numbers don't tell   unless maybe you've been playing for a  very long time and you can automatically  recognize that.

Z- But I think with this  game,   as somebody myself ADHD, playing this  game is everything that I hoped Dn D   would be straight away like not to be  like, but it's like you're in it, you  play when you roll the dice, you haven't  had to do a massive amount of leg work  to and everyone's involved in those dice  rolls as well. We're all watching like  this. Yeah, you do get that a bit with D  and D. It's just it's a lot harder to  for me personally to concentrate when  there's a lot of  

C-Yeah.   

Z- in and out, in and out. Whereas with  Shiver, it's a we're in, we're doing it,  it's moving.  Yes. So, the difference is is that to  really Yeah, I think you are right.

C- You  captured me quite well. Like, it's  unfair to say that numbers don't tell  stories because they really do. But the  problem is is that in order to be able  to have numbers tell a story to you, you  need to understand what the numbers mean  in the context of that game.   Yeah.   Um, and the numbers in the context of  that game can change vastly   character to character and what's on  their sheet and what classes and bonuses  they have. that isn't active impressive  information for everybody because you  can't be looking at six character sheets  all at once   as a player in particular as a GM you  have to um as as as a player you you  kind of don't have that really in Shiba  the whole kind of reason behind the  symbolic dice and that everything kind  of has its element of meaning it  represents an aspect of your character  also has just like a certain vibe to an  action it's like do you do something  with force do you do Yes.   With kind of you do something that's a  bit sling like you do something with  like charisma and you like really kind  of kind of throw your back into it like  in terms of performance and   it means that the other dice can if you  have success the other dice can color it  and kind of give you roleplaying like  hints and help of of like how how you  succeed. Um it colors failures really  really nicely um as well of that um you  do something very different and it ends  up going in a completely different  direction.
Now, as we talk about like  with the doom clock, it if you roll a  stranger trick to an event, you feel the  consequences of your actions in the  narrative very sharply. Um, so I'll use  an example for example.  I can't get up.  Um,   so say we are in a 1980s. Um, and  there's a slasher abroad chasing you  down um, you know, running at you with a  machete and you want to kick down um, a  door into a cabin and and try and hide  inside. So, say you run towards it and  you kind of you roll your dice and you  try and kind of kick it down. Um, you  fail, you roll a bunch of strange, it  triggers a doom event. Um, I could say  you kick the door open, the splinter  goes into your leg. Um, and you stumble  and you st and you stumble back and  you're now moving really really slowly.  And as the door slowly swings open, the  slasher is magically on the other side.  Because if you lose sight of them, they  are want to teleport. And we literally  put a rule in trigger for that. When you  lose sight of a slasher, they can  magically teleport to another area where  you can't see them and then appear  again. The more supernatural ones that  are in there. Um, so that's like an  emblem of like how that works kind of in  a doom like in a Doom clock scenario.   Um, so say you shift the system over to  DND. Um, so quite often when it comes to  doors, um, a lot of people's first one  in is I want a lot pick and you're in a  group. Um, you do you're encouraged not  to split up because of the way the  balancing works in time horror movie.  I want you to die. Um, no, don't don't  tell the group. I said that.   

Z- We literally had someone's character  just die.   

C- He did jump out the window from like two  stories off.

Z- I think Harriet wanted him to die.   

C- I think she did. Yeah.

Yeah. Harriet was  the person controlling. So just to be  clear. Um so so yeah and it's and this  is a really common phenomenon that you  get in D and D and I think it's a lot of  GMs if you GMs are out there and you're  listening I think you recognize the  scenario. Encounter heavy door. Player  wants to lockpick door. They're not  probably the best at lockpicking. They  roll their dice. They fail. They don't  actively see anything else around that's  going to cause a problem. They keep  rolling. Someone else turns up being  like, "Oh, maybe I'll roll and see if we  can get through." And eventually the  scene that you get when you actually  imagine it and put in your head of like  what the players are actually doing and  and this is where the disconnect in  terms of narrative happens and the kind  of the cinematic element that you're  maybe trying to create a table is  ultimately you've got five fantasy  characters around a door fiddling with a  lock for 20 minutes basically brute  forcing it through the programmatic  language of chance of lobbing a d20  again again again until somebody gets  it does happen or it doesn't happen  maybe to that extreme extent but it does  happen that way and that was one of the  big design things in my brain of being  like I as a GM hate that it happens  because it's it's like for me running  games it's like I want things to feel  immersive and cinematic. I want people  to feel like they're in a movie.
And I  know some people be like, they may  disagree kind of with that as like an  experience, but for Shiver in  particular, I want people to feel like  they're in a horror movie. And to get  away from that, um, the dice need to  have sharper consequence and more clear  consequence   and also more information for you and  the player to pivot in a different  direction. Um, so like if you roll d if  you roll a strange, you trigger a doom  event, bad can happen to you. If  you roll a load of dice, you can succeed  in a totally spectacular way that then  helps you discover another thing and  moves the story forward even faster. Um,  or you can fail forwards in an  interesting way. So, the common one I  use in conventions to explain the dice  system is you try and kick the door  down. You roll a load of smarts. You  kick the door, you stop your toe, you  take more damage. You have a consequence  there. However, as you stumble back, um,  you notice that one of the four boards  is sitting a little bit more strangely  compared to the others. You pull it up  and you discover there's a key hidden  under there to use your brain. Um, and  and it's And that's something we  encourage uh for both sides of the table  to do. So it's like that's something a  GM can do. That's something a player can  do.
I often use it with younger players.  So like we we run games, you know,  people up usually um and and some of  these kids have never played role  playing games before and it's a lot of  um okay so like you rolled a load of  smart. So like can you think of like a  brainy way that your character would get  past this door and tell me what it is  and then they'll tell me. They'll be  like that's what happens. That's sick.  That's really cool. They're like  awesome.

Z- Yeah.

C- I added to the story  because it's it's not about for me role  playing is not about putting forward a a  puzzle that your a puzzle or a situation  that your players are going to have stat  statistically overcome.   It's about them being involved in a  narrative that they can help shape um  and ultimately feel the consequences of  their actions within that narrative  involved as well. And I think that is  two very is a very different way to lead  design. Um and I think a lot more games  are now moving in that direction   especially because of the representation  of role playing games in the media and  like and people like yourself being like  this is what I think D and D  is or like kind of like what a role  playing game is from when you watch like  the kids and stranger things playing in  the basement. Um Critical Role running  their campaigns. um the numerous like  actual play podcasts that are kind of  out there. Um and but it's not to say  that those aren't roleplaying, but it's  ultimately they are they are facets of  role playing that are refined to be  entertainment.   That's it. They're refined. That's nice.   Yeah. They're they're refined to a point  that they are entertainment and not  actually a   they don't they don't represent the full  spectrum of um what a role playing game  is like at your actual table.
They don't  have the moment where you pause for 10  minutes to find an obscure rule in the  book because one of the players has  built a really weird character.  That can be fun as well.   Yeah.   But I think this just is a wonderful in  its own right.   

Z- Yeah.   Can I ask you number  six, which is um we sort of touched on  it right at the start,   but what do you think little Charlie  would say about what you've created and  the job you do now? What do you think? 

C- I think he'd be be amazed. I I think  he'd be very happy.   Yeah.   Which makes me very happy that that's  kind of been achieved.  Um, and I think, yeah, it's an  interesting one because I think it's  kind of what I think I said earlier of  being like, oh yeah, like kind of when I  was reading it being like the whole I  make a book that would be cool and like  that was always a bit of a dream and  that kind of got   in the path of like moving into adult  the world of work that kind of got lost  and now it's kind of circled back around  to it and I'm happy again. So,   good, I'm so glad.   So, yeah. So, so I I think they'd be  very happy. I think they'd be surprised  at what the books are.   I think I think that's that that's  that's the interesting bit. They'd be  like, "Oh, I guess she writes story  books." Not not exactly like Yeah. It's  not like a book that allows people to  tell their own stories through rolling  dice. And they'd be like, "Oh, he's a  real big nerd, isn't he? Oh, no.   Not like this."   But no, I don't really think he'd be.   

Z- But then he'd watch you playing it  around the table with all your friends. He get

C- Yeah.

Z- -your dog and your  girlfriend and it will be right. Yeah. Okay. You're a cool nerd.   

C- Yeah. He's fundamentally understand it's  basically what me and my brother were  probably trying to do when playing with  Lego together like with characters  moving them around and trying to make  little games out of it to which Barney  would make the rules. I would never  understand them fully and Barney would  always win.   Wow.

Z- It's always something like that,  isn't it?   

C- Yeah.   

Z- I love that.  What do you wish more people knew about  because I'm sure there are people out  there of obviously who want to make  their games and do this sort of thing.  What do you wish they could know more  about the process or people who have not  like what do you what's the thing you'd  like them to know?

C- I think for me it's  it's kind of the view that if you're  wanting to get into RPGs and making  books and stuff like this that it's not  as simple as sitting down just writing   an adventure and putting it out there.  That's like your first step is what I  would say. If you're wanting to get to  published book territory or even like  published adventure territory or like  working for an RPG company, I think the  thing I'd like people to know most is  that they need to be prepared to wear  multiple hats   and not be afraid of stepping into areas  that they don't know that they're  uncomfortable in and try something  that's a bit different.
So like for me  for example like I just wanted to write  really I kind of was very interested in  that like there was a time where I was  going to illustrate sh and then we  swerved away from that and realized  that's insanity too much work.   

Z- Oh my god as an artist hearing that and  you try to do I'll be like  yeah-

C- and then we discovered Ben who's one of  my sisters in laws friends who's now the kind of the  lead artist for Shiver and is amazing. Um,  but yeah, it's it's trying your hand at  certain things and filling that gap even  if it's something that is not necessary  the strength you enjoy it. So for me, I  do all of the layout in in design and  all of our um negotiations and stuff  with like our print houses. So like I  determine like kind of like the print  finishes, like how the books look, all  the technical aspects of that, like  making sure they print correctly.   And I'm not going to lie, when it comes  to technical print stuff, it's those  dishes. I hate it. like it is not good.  It's not fun. Like it's really not fun.  But I think the thing is is that I'd  like people to know more about the  process. I think this is goes broader  than just RPGs. That ultimately to make  something you love come to life, you're  going to have to do things that you  don't enjoy, don't necessarily feel that  good at. Um but in order for the thing  to exist, no one is going to do it for  you. Like no one is going to do it for  you.
Especially if you're working solo  or in a small team, like sometimes you  just have to like suck out and just do  it and try it. I mean, I was working on  uh the first book and then the Gothic  books when I was still working um at the  university. I was like doing it in my  spare time and I taught myself in  design. Um in that time, I went on  graphic design courses. Um, I had chats  with people like in the graphic design  department like luckily about like  certain issues I was having very  sneakily uh to be.   

Z- Yeah.

C- Yeah. Like lent on some of my  co-workers a little bit um when I was  still working there like to kind of just  learn a little bit more.   Um and that's just the kind of thing  that you need to do. Um, and try and  find the fun and the passion in it where  you can. Um, because otherwise you find  yourself capped out at certain points of  like if you're really good at writing  adventure, then unless you're willing to  pay someone to lay it out and artwork  it, then really it's going to be like a  really good game. You can run at  conventions and you run it like at like  shows and like friendly local gaming  stores. But if you can't lay out into a  PDF that's deliverable drive through  RPG, you're not even able to sell it  digitally. Yeah,   because no one is going to pay money for  an ugly pain document or I mean like you  know when you know you can go on and get  a really good adventure laid out you  know it's like 15 pages for a fiber like  it's it's in terms of like kind of  knowing that market and knowing where  your weaknesses are and what outlay  you're willing to put out into the world  in order to make your thing come to  life. Whether that's learning it  yourself   or actually supporting another creative  by paying them to do it.   
Don't use AI and rely on that.  I'm gonna I'm gonna throw that out here  now.   

Z- Yeah. The creative people are here. We  we do charge money, but that's because  it's our job and we like to eat food and  keep a roof over our head.   

C- Yeah. And we'll get the number of  fingers right. It's like, come on.   

Z- I might not. So, I will forget to count.   

C- But yeah, in all in all serious, my you  our frustration with AI. It's  interesting just as a note um the for  people who don't know is that like a  role playing  fascinating is extremely anti AI on the  CR like fiercely.   Um so like we're working I can't say who  yet but working to go onto a virtual  tabletop platform that just would  interact with AI content in any way. If  anything discover you're using it,  they'll ban you. Like it is it's it's  yeah like there are spaces out there. 
There is hope. Like don't worry like  yeah it's um but but it is something to  challenge but I think it is also if you  are a creative who is hitting a certain  wall in your own process. I would  implore you  plan either learn the skill yourself and  upskill yourself and put the time into  developing yourself or you know save up  the money like you were saving up to buy  like a new games console or something  like that and invest in another creative  to help you bring that to life   and it will be a lot more satisfying  than going down the the dark art route   the dark arts that route that makes it  sound cool. Oh, no.   
Let's just call it is it's like the lazy  tech bro like I think I think that's the  issue is that there was an I was  watching interview with Gil Toro  recently. I think he summarized really  nicely when it comes to the creative  process. This comes into what also I  think I'd love people to know about  creative process especially with the  spectra of AI hanging over all of us. um  is that art has a human cost to it to  exist.   And I think the thing is is when you  look at the stuff that AI is making off  of the backs and the training of people  who have put that effort in, it's it's  very very sad. But I think like kind of  when you actually look at the stuff that  AI is making compared to what people are  making, you know, people who are paid  fair wage um to actually make and create  and put out into the world is do how  much How do you spend when you come  across this AI slop? Like you literally  just skip past it. When you actually  interact with real art, art made by  people with passion and kind of an  actual story to tell, you spend time  with it. I think Gilard Toro put it best  is kind of um good art, I'm going to be  paraphrasing him a bit here, is  basically like kind of good art or art  that has kind of meaning that's kind of  made with people um demands some element  of your presence. like kind of what  would you sacrifice to be there? Like  are you going to stand 10 hours in line  so you can go see the moment Lisa?   Um or you know go into the system chapel  um or or you know book early so you can  go see that film and support it in the  cinema like I did with Frankenstein. It's great great  film. I'm very obsessed with it at the  moment. Um, it's it's yeah, I think  we we we sacrifice our our time, our  money, our focus for art that means  something to us. Um, and the thing that  AI generated stuff currently is lacking  is that because ultimately it's  throwaway. It's very immaterial. It's  kind of there and it's exist for a  second and we scroll past it. Whilst  really we should be investing in artists  who will make stuff that will become  somebody's favorite game that they play  every week or their favorite movie that  they watch every year at a certain time  of year because it reminds them of  something they love. Like that's the  kind of thing that we should be putting  investment into rather than stuff that  actively destroys that pathway and that  kind of content for people to actually  enjoy the game. 

Z- Yeah,   I like that.   Last question. Is there a moment and  that doesn't have to be that changed?  Oh. So, so, so I I've already talked  about Barney and and kind of Christmas  and I think that that is that is a  moment.   Do you want when you make this that   Yeah. Yeah. That that was kind of like  the validity stamp of being like,   oh,   you're your  exactly like of just being like, no,  like this is actually something. This  isn't just a fun throw away creation  that you've made. that's only could be  joy for one a small group of people. Um  Barney's put it quite well of that one  of the best things about our jobs is  that ultimately we are merchants of joy.  We are merchants of of fun of people  have sitting down getting together  around the table in person.   

Z- Tell me you have a name tag. Charlie Menzies is merchant of fun.   

C- Yeah. But I think that that came we've  already kind of talked about it. I think  for me if it was kind of a more personal  moment that changed everything is that  once the dust had settled with the  initial release and shiver  um till we went to UK games expo we won  um the people's choice award for best  new RPG for the core rule book and it  was the first thing I ever made in the  sphere   and after that I kind of accepted that  that was real because that took a while  um imposter syndrome has privacy discuss   holding the award like I don't think  this is real   was was a a general review of kind of  what I actually wanted to achieve  creatively with my life   because I think the issues for I think I  probably alluded to it earlier of being  like you know I want to direct a film by  the time I'm 30 like I have very  specific goals of being like really  wanted to like kind of make a film and  and kind of get it out there and see it  on the cinema screen but then there was  also all these time elements of being it  needs to be by him like  all of this um and all of these kind of  very go basically a really big list that  was wavering and cheetah  list and then actually what it actually  took is rather than actually putting  that list is that what it need is the  whole tower just need to be kicked down   and shiver kind of did that it realized   it opened up a door in my brain of what  my creativity should be and what it  should be about because for me I always  thought I'm trained in film and TV. I  know how to make films. Like this is  what I should be doing. I want to direct  films. I want to start film. And and  then as you see how the towers grow like  really really quickly   which it really because I just kind of  did this as a bit of fun to kind of  express myself and do something  different and find an avenue to kind of  talk to people and tell stories and get  people engaged with something that I  love like kind of horror as a genre as  well as games. And it is the kind of  thing there was a bit of a lightning  bolt moment with it that the thing  that's important to me creating it  doesn't matter what the medium is. I  might move on from those in the future.  I may make things in other mediums and  it's the medium itself actually isn't  the thing that's important. The thing  that's important for me is that I'm  always telling stories and encouraging  other people to do so. And that's that  was the turning point.   

Z- You've got it. Yeah,   I think as long as the roots are good,  what you grow is good and that your  roots are in your storytelling and even  further down enjoy.   

C- Yeah.   

Z- Like whatever you grow from that,  whether it's games or films or whatever  comes in the future, it's going to be  good. Right.   

C- Exactly. It's I think it's really  important just not to get fixated on the  medium. I think that's and a lot of  people do it and I've taught film and  stuff for a while too and you kind of  saw it happening all the time. it needs  to be this this specific thing in this  very way. And it's kind of like when you  actually like draw it all kind of back.  Um it's kind of like why you have to ask  yourself the question of like why you  actually wanting to create what is the  drive like like what is the thing that  you're trying to do through creating?   Um and for a lot of us it's expressing  ourselves and communicating something.   Um and for me like kind of storytelling  is is something I feel very very  passionate about. So, so in terms of  like it's kind of you kind of almost  have to find that um my old  screenwriting tutor Simon Band like put  it really nicely like when you kind of  was talking about writing I think I  didn't really understand the context as  I do now at the time like with any  story that you're telling child any  screenplay that you're writing the whole  thing is you have to find this like what  is that nugget of gold within that story  like what is it you're trying to say   um with something And I think that's  what's important. It's it's kind of like  what you trying to say, what you trying  to do. Are you trying to tell a story?  Are you trying to inspire? Are you  trying to raise awareness? It's things  are way more broad brush when it comes  to creativity than just like um like I'm  an RPG designer. I only make games. I'm  a painter. I only do oil canvases. Yeah.   Like it's   that's not what it's about. And   that's not what people are coming to the  shop and looking through the shelves for  the next game of yours is. It's not what  they're looking for.   Exactly. But I think it's very in a  world that's so commercial, it's it's  something where where where we fall down  that hole as creatives really really  quickly. Our audiences hilariously don't  like but like in terms of viewing our  own stuff, they they don't see it that  way at all. And sometimes it's talking  like about going to conventions is that  sometimes meeting people who are fan of  Shiver who are playing games kind of  snaps you back to reality a bit for a  bit about like why you're doing the  thing that you're doing. I think that's  really important.   

Z- What a fantastic interview. Thank you so  much. Like my mics to work and then I'm  gonna harass Charlie and he will do my  interview in a sentence. Um, thank you.   

C- My pleasure.

Z- There's been some wonderful  nuggets in this interview. I cannot wait  to watch it back and yeah, I'm gonna  enjoy looking through all of it. Um, so  one more time,   Shiver, Parable, where can we find you?  I'm going to put it all in the the links  and stuff below here. Um, got all the  way through and enjoyed with us.   Thank you, Charlie.   

C- Thank you.   

Z- Nice. We're going to turn it off and  we're going to go harass the dog.   That was fab.   Thank

Whatchu doing sneaking about down here?

You mean you absolutely love editing huge sections of text and want to be employed by me one day to do this because it is killing my lil adhd brain? Please get in touch!

oH, we're taking it old school.
No plan.
No call to action.
Just rambling and doodling a blog post out of thin air.
I think things got a little too wrapped up in 'how can I make this a catchy title' at some point last year.
And I howl to think of the traffic that actually made it to this sentence.
That's not to do myself a disservice I know my die hards are there - I love you.
All 3 of ya.
Maybe more - who knows!

How fun it is (and also the feeling of having a giant spotlight put on you - you're in the middle of the stage and the light is creaking in the silence for a second as you adjust your collar) when someone says - "I read your blog".
Then you relax and stop panicking that this isn't 2009 and no one is reading your livejournal.
You published this stuff on purpose thinking people might read it.

Listen forget AI slop I am literally capable of making my own.

I'm excited for February's 'content' - I slightly crumple at this word because of it's bad rap.
BUT.
it is really, really cool and I'm very proud of it.
It'll be mostly over on YouTube for yall.
I want to keep making projects like this because it's pure creative flow and joy and never feels like work.

Anyway.
In the same vein as keeping it light and rambly I thought you might like to see my Jan doods.
I finished a sketchbook and started a new one which is very cool.
I immediately broke the spine of the new bookwhich I can see Harriet coiling away in horror at.
It's why she won't lend me any of her extensive library despite recommending the majority of it to me.
I don't blame her.
I read in the bath.

1000% recommend Knives Out trilogy if you are looking for a rec. 

Brb off to make a ridiculous clock neck chain.
Has anyone got either a spare cuckoo clock or one of those black and white cat clocks.
The one with the shifty side eye.
​Context - The Wedding Singer Grandma rap.

Ramblings. Anyone used to race raindrops down the window too?
Recommend revisiting.

Some ramblings about getting daylight.
And one badly drawn picture of Amy flipping the birds.

The cutest babygirl ever to have babygirled.
Soup.

Alas, she is not ours.
We are her Air B&B whilst Sky & Tommi are off on holiday.
But we are determined to find our own this year...
​So watch this space.

It's December 11th writing this.
I just had 2 coffees.
And I'm writing stuff for January as 

you and I that is - on this blog.
But we're back babeh.
And we're gonna look at the chaotic piece of... art? That was and is -

and that is more than ok.

WE MADE ART!
WE JUMPED INTO THE SEA WITH FRIENDS OFF A PIRATE SHIP AND GOT WHIPLASH
WE HAD A GARDEN CINEMA - MULTIPLE TIMES
WE WENT TO GREECE
WE DID ... try to work on our posture (shrimp).
WE DID EXERCISE OUR INNER DEMONS.
WE DID YELL PINK PONY CLUB AT MULTIPLE WEDDINGS 

aMAZING.
​
We are yet to:
Get inked again
Fully transform into Silvermist from Tinkerbell? Honestly, unsure.
Remember to work on Rebel CLub badges

WE DID DO SOME DANCIN'!
WE DID EAT EGGS!
WE ALSO ATE CHEESE!
WE DID INDEED GO HARD AND THEN GO HOME!
WE DID BUILD SOME GOOD HABITS!
SET UP ART BUSINESS HOORAY!

We are still to (at this moment in time):
Acquire cat
Do pottery (if Laura see's this she is simply going to YELL at me about Fonda and his pottery store in Greece but I was dying of heat ok I'm sorry)

It cost me about £3 and I looked at it almost daily.
Putting a mixture of 'I already have this plan'
and 
'I'd like to do this'
really helped with the vibes.

Doing it with friends around was the best way to start the year.
We had a good vibe.
It did however make my back hurt because I am over 30 and apparently can't craft on the floor for multiple hours without pain. Ty spine.

Have an excellent 2026 everyone.
Let's goooooooo.