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Celebrating Creativity - 4; Charlie.

1/25/2026

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Introducing this weeks creative,

Charlie Menzies

Tabletop RPG Creator

Parable Games Instagram

Shiver (RPG)

The Short Version

Self confessed nerd and passionate creative Charlie talks about realising his childhood dream to write a book and how that spiralled into the well-loved RPG series; Shiver. In this episode he talks openly about the war between AI and creatives alongside the truth of creativity, the intricate programmatic language of role-playing games and the roots of storytelling and joy in his work.

Top interview quotes:

(talking about playing Shiver with his brother and now business partner, Barney)
“…and he read through it and he kind of sat there and I remember he post looked up at me and he said, "When do you want to make it?" And and I was like I was like, "What do you mean?"
And and so I didn't say yes initially, but he kind of he was like, "Well, it's like you've designed it. You're playing with your friends and it's ultimately to be frank. It's some I sell RPGs in my shop and it's something I've not seen before and I think it is a gap that you've filled because you filled it by making something that you want to play and you love.
So this seems like it could be really fun.”

Zoe - "what do you think little Charlie would say about what you've created and the job you do now?
What do you think?"

Charlie - I think he'd be be amazed. I I think he'd be very happy... make a book - that would be cool and like that was always a bit of a dream... now it's kind of circled back around to it and I'm happy again... I think they'd be surprised at what the books are. I think I think that's that that's that's the interesting bit.
They'd be like, "Oh, I guess he writes story books." Not not exactly like... Yeah. It's like a book that allows people to tell their own stories through rolling dice. And they'd be like,
"Oh, he's a real big nerd, isn't he? Oh, no."

Z- I bet the first time you held one of these in your hand was insane.

C- When it's being published I teared up... I always had a dream of being like one day I'll have a book published like a hardcover book. It'll be mine. … t was very emotional when they arrived. And then I think there was another layer of that where there's one thing where you've like printed something and made and you you're holding the finished item and that feels really really good.

(Talking about the work behind publishing an RPG)
If you're wanting to get to published book territory or even like published adventure territory or like working for an RPG company, I think the thing I'd like people to know most is that they need to be prepared to wear multiple hats and not be afraid of stepping into areas that they don't know that they're uncomfortable in and try something that's a bit different.

Especially if you're working solo or in a small team, like sometimes you just have to like suck out and just do it and try it. I mean, I was working on uh the first book and then the Gothic books when I was still working um at the university. I was like doing it in my spare time and I taught myself In Design. Um in that time, I went on graphic design courses. Um, I had chats with people like in the graphic design department like luckily about like certain issues I was having to be very sneaky.

(Thoughts on AI)
C- Don't use AI and rely on that. I'm gonna I'm gonna throw that out here now.

Z- Yeah. The creative people are here. We we do charge money, but that's because it's our job and we like to eat food and keep a roof over our head.

C- Yeah. And we'll get the number of fingers right. It's like, come on.

Z- I might not. So, I will forget to count.

C- But yeah, in all in all serious, my frustration with AI. It's interesting just as a note, um, the for people who don't know is that like role playing, fascinatingly, is extremely anti AI

AI generated stuff currently is lacking is that because ultimately it's throwaway. It's very immaterial. It's kind of there and it's exist for a second and we scroll past it. Whilst really we should be investing in artists who will make stuff that will become somebody's favorite game that they play every week or their favorite movie that they watch every year at a certain time of year because it reminds them of something they love. Like that's the kind of thing that we should be putting investment into rather than stuff that actively destroys that pathway and that kind of content for people to actually enjoy the game.

(On his job)
...the best things about our jobs is that ultimately we are merchants of joy. We are merchants of of fun of people have sitting down getting together around the table in person.

The thing that's important for me is that I'm always telling stories and encouraging other people to do so. And that's that was the turning point.

Z- What's the biggest challenge you faced in that project? So when you were creating Shiver?

C- Basically having to tussle with serious imposter syndrome because I kind of had a very sudden sharp route into the industry and was suddenly like there doing shows and like the book was published, it was out and like being sold and I was like, "Oh." And then It was all just quite a lot. And I had that kind of feeling because it's when something like that happens so fast.

(Talking about running a Shiver session as GM)
...you're encouraged not to split up because of the way the balancing works (in DND). It's a horror movie.
(Shiver) I want you to die! Um, no, don't don't tell the group I said that...

Shiver and Parable Games:

Play amazing narrative-led horror stories with this award winning
easy-to-learn TTRPG. Whether you want a Slasher, a Horror-Comedy, or a
exciting action-adventure - let SHIVER power your tabletop tales.

Listen to the episode:

If you are able to subscribe to me on YouTube - I would appreciate that so much.
Thank you.

The grab a cuppa let's go back to 2009 version.

The Long YouTube Transcript :

C - I think they'd be surprised at what the books are.
I I think that's that that's that's the interesting bit.
They'd be like, "Oh, I guess she write a story book." It's like, not exactly like-
Yeah. It's not like a book that allows people to tell their own stories through rolling dice and they be like,
"Oh, he's a real big nerd, is he? Oh, no."

C - Good art or art that has kind of meaning that's kind of made with people um demands some element of your presence like kind of what would you sacrifice to be there like are you going to stand 10 hours in line so you can go see the moment later or you know go into the Sistine Chapel...

Interview Starts
C-so I think you're leaving that in

Z- 100% like the bit that I just did with Curtis and me at the end being

C- Yeah,

Z- We're children children at heart. Anyway, hello today everyone. I'm here with Charlie Menzies and uh we're going to be doing our lovely interview for four already. Hopefully all going well. We have these lovely little chinchilla looking microphones today. So, we should be sounding a lot better than we have for the previous ones. But for anybody who's here for number four, thanks for being here. Um, I cannot wait to hear all about this. It's something very different today and I'll let Charlie tell you all about it. Um, but for now, let's start with what I normally end with, which is where can people find you if they want to hear more about you beyond this?

C- Absolutely. Um, so you can find us at www.parablegames.co.uk. GamesParable on X Twitter, whatever the hell it is now.

Z- I don't know. I don't have it.

C- Um, if you search Parable games on Instagram and Facebook, you can find us on there.
You can find some under Shiver RPG as well to have multiple pages for different products, which I'll get into in a minute. Yeah, but Parable Games is the is the main search and you'll find this

Z- and they're really easy to find because I tagged them in something the other day and realized I wasn't following them! So, then I followed them. I don't know if you saw that. Okay, let's get cracking.
Just let me find the questions which are hopefully in your brain by now, but they won't be in mine. I can't remember anything. Right. Question number one. Let's start with number one, shall we? What is your favourite project ever and why?
So that can be project a game you created just in general, even if something else comes up in your brain that's not even to do with this.

C- So it's a tough it's a tough one to answer and I wonder if you feel similarly like this as a creative. It's like picking between your kids. I don't have an answer. I don't know. Well, you know what I mean?

Z- Yeah.

C- I don't know what I'm talking about. That's right.

Z- He does have one child, but it's got four legs- Bear.

C- Yeah. But who is who is number one? He would get picked over everything. But but yeah, no, in terms of like picking between projects, each one has something very different to it that scratches a different part of my brain. But if I had if I had to pick one, I'd say it has to be Shiver because it was the project for me that kind of changed the course of my creative journey entirely into a completely different field, different career, different life. So, so yeah, so it would be that one. It is my baby still is very much the one that is kind of like it was the first kind of main one that has spiralled up and so everything. So yeah, have to say.

Z- Excellent choice as well because I can actually say I have played Shiver how many times now?

C- Two. We're in the middle of the second campaign.

Z- I think three. Three. Oh, wait. No, because did we did the we did the dinosaur one and now we are doing the Did you do

C- Did you not do the submarine one?

Z- No.

C- Oh, that was amazing.

Z- Yes. Anyway, but yes. So, so yeah. Yeah. Two times but multiple sessions of each, isn't it? That's always the weird bit I have to get around in my brain of being like, is it sessions? Is it stories kind of like how we I know because this one's going on for like three sessions now. Um how I would describe it before you do is a much more accessible way of playing like a D&D what are they called when it's a shorter version a short campaign. It is so much fun and like the it's not so much about the numbers and things like that. It's all about the story and the dice are so much easier to use and things seem to move a little faster and it's a little bit more um creative. Even though D and D can be really fun, it can also be quite overwhelming because I've played D and D found it that way.

C- For any non- nerds out there watching this, D and D and D is Dungeons and Dragons. Um a very famous fantasy role playing game. Um and that is what I'm in the business of making is role playing games. Um I I have also done this in the past where I start talking realize oh wait not everyone is coming at this from an angle of knowing role playing games but I think my playing ship you played some Dungeons and Dragons already like it does feel like you and their friends have very much fallen quite heavily into the hobby which is really love to see but it's a really common thing that it's a bit of a as a hobby it's a bit of creative gateway drug to gaming in general.

Z-I would say especially for anyone with a theatre kid background.

C- You got me.

Z-I got him. Yeah. So, yeah, thank you for turning into what I needed to say, which was, yes, DND stands for Dungeons and Dragons, which is a table top game. I just got so into talking about it, didn't even realize that I was using the lingo. Um, so yeah, that is what Shiver is in in essence and it's your baby and your creation and it's incredible. So give us a kind of overview of Shiver in general apart from like that's what it is but like what kind of things does it cover because I know you've got like nine 10 how many?

C- It would be the more recent book gets finished and published it will be 10 I think roughly. Um but yeah, so Shiver is a horror role playing game. Um so really kind of what the game is is this. It is a book. It is a book that gives you rules um in order to play a game on the table top with your friends where one player takes on the role of the director. Um in Dungeons and Dragons it would be the dungeon master for example, but it's someone who's running the game and telling the story.

Z- Yeah.

C- Um your players are playing in that story and inhabiting characters making decisions. and when they make decisions and especially try and do tough things, they have to roll dice to determine what happens. So for Shiver, um this took my love of horror movies and I kind of thought, what if I tried recreating that feeling of inviting your friends over for a horror movie night and you're all kind of, you know, sitting around with a popcorn, but you play in the movie? Because I'm a massive horror fan and I get really sick of people who are a bit down on the genre going, "Oh, yeah, I'd survive that." Yeah. No, they make really dumb decisions. And it's the thing as soon as you put players at the table, as I think you've probably experienced, you put a little tiny bit of pressure on them. The the terrible decisions come out of woodwork. They're everywhere. And it's a really fascinating thing to play around with. Um, and kind of on the flip side of that, I also wanted to make a role playing game that was more accessible as well because I started playing Dungeons and Dragons and that's what I was kind of doing for as well as Cthulhu and some of the other like the various like big ones. Um, and a lot of my players really struggled with numerical dice.
So, we kind of went down a different route with it to make using symbol dice. The rules are very kind of light and easy to kind of get into, but there's a lot of depth to how you can kind of play. That is definitely how I describe it as well because just because it's light, it doesn't mean that it's not got that depth and it doesn't mean that it's not um gripping and like exciting. Like there's still so much to it, but it's so much easier to play because you get to you're not bogged down in a lot of the weight of I should be better with words, but not bogged down by the weight of all of these rules and like I don't know. Well, well, I think really kind of what you're doing there and actually you're kind of almost calculating and trying to figure out it's like, okay, how do I explain like the massy element of the pluses and minuses of to an audience ultimately that's the problem. So, when you're at a table, so the whole point of Shiver is basically you're playing a horror movie with your friends. That's the whole point. And in a horror movie, if the characters suddenly pause and be like, "Right, okay, right. I'm going to swing my axe. I'm going to hit the zombie in the head and hopefully I'll kill it. Otherwise, it might eat me."

Z- Right. Okay.

C- Okay, so now I just need to get out this table and it's plus two here. It's a minus thing and do the cross division here and all of a sudden the tension is it's gone. It's it's evaporated.

Z- I'm back in like year 10 maths having a terrible time.

C- Exactly. And I think for a lot of my friends that's where they were going. And then and that's kind of how this started was basically a homebrew system that I played with a bunch of my old screenwriting friends from my course and like kind of been ding when I was still living down London and just did it as a way like we don't have that much time. We're quite busy. They're bouncing off of this rule set. You know, I'm I'm enjoying it. Let's make something that's really really fun. And basically we played that for a year before I even showed it to anyone else like in a group. Yeah.

Z- That's amazing.

C- Yeah. So So Shiver was just like a thing that I did with friends for as just like a a fun a fun creative thing. I never really considered it um anything until like a very key point and then that kind of that's what it kind of evolved into something else from there. Yeah.

Z- Amazing. I think that'll probably fit into one of the other questions. So this might build on that. What's the biggest challenge you faced in that project? So when you were creating Shiver because we all talked about how good it is and this and that. What's the biggest challenge you faced?

C- Oh Christ, there's so many. It's so for a bit of context is I before designing this game, I was in the film and TV industry. That's where I kind of started where my love of like horror and stories and kind of like cinematic storytelling generally came from. Um, and I always thought like that's kind of where I was going to be going. So, it was really interesting moving into an entirely new sphere. Um, and basically having to tussle with serious imposter syndrome because I kind of had a very sudden sharp route into the industry and was suddenly like there doing shows and like the book was published, it was out and like being sold and I was like, "Oh." And then It was all just quite a lot. And I had that kind of feeling because it's when something like that happens so fast.

Z- Yeah.

C- And you completely pivoted from some from another creative field. Um and suddenly that is kind of gaining traction when there have been people there who've been you know working in that industry for like kind of 10 years. And it was a very strange thing for me to pass that like I was I was here I was doing well like people enjoying what I was making even though fundamentally it was the first thing I'd ever made that was a game and I think that was that was a big one especially with the sugar core rule set was like I' i'd never I'd never done anything like that before and it was kind of a bit of a hail Mary kickum we'll probably get into kind of a later the actual history of it. But yeah, no kind of like tussling with am I actually a professional? Do I belong to be in this space? Do I belong to be do does my stuff belong in stores? Like like kind of like people are paying this something I've made on the regular and playing it. And it is this kind of interesting thing of like being very proud of the thing that you've made. Yeah. But it kind of being because it's the first one, it kind of being like it's got to be a fluke. like it's like something something's not quite right and that has faded. It's always still there like a little bit. And I think the other thing as well I will say about the role pack in general is it's generally an older space like in in terms of um like kind of more I mean like DND was late ' 80s. So you have much older longer established country um companies um and products as well product lines. to me like D and D obviously like kind of being one of those but like poor Cthulhu which is probably one of our biggest competitors and a game that I absolutely love um from Chaosium is very much kind of in that and it was like kind of like entering in where you know you've got these basic games that are straight in with the big dogs basically.

Z- Yeah.

C- And these and these games are like you know this is like first edition of a thing I've never made before and then you know you're going up against something like which is on its eighth ninth edition like Yeah. 89th edition now though. Well, we're still first edition, but it's but but yeah, and I think it's a really important thing to talk about because I think a lot of don't that like you always have that little voice inside your head. Oh, maybe it's just me.

Z- Definitely not.

C- It's not that like I even even the world and the people the product itself is saying is like this is good everything is fine if you don't feel like internally like you've proved yourself enough in that arena.

Z- Yeah.

C- Um there will be that that that anxiety that's that's doubt that's there that kind of handing that can kind of happen. But um and then it turns out the way to get past that was just to keep publishing more books which is what we did. So it's it's definitely faded. Um but there's there's always like you know when you try something new so for example actually here. So um so like I branched into solo role playing games with don't play this game. I started designing it a couple of years ago and and that kind of got released and that's that been really well received. It was a was a very tough book to write. Um but in terms of that it definitely awoke solution to being like although it's a role playing game it's in a very very different sphere role playing games it's designed for singular person to play and be a very personal experience which is very different design ethos so so yeah again with lots of people proving in that space so so yeah imposter syndrome that's that's what I would say side quest question yeah slash statement

Z- I bet the first time you held one of these in your hand was insane

C- When it's being published I teared up. Like it's so so like as a kid and and it's interesting because it's something that faded away a little bit more of that. I always had a dream of being like one day I'll have a book published like a hard cover book. It'll be mine. It'll be something I've written and it'll be done. Um and that kind of like faded away a bit when I kind of went to film being oh I'm going to be like directing a film when I'm 30. Like kind of like like that energy kind of went more that way. Um when it turns out that actually um Kids Charlie was was more realistic.

Z- Um he he knew what was up.

C- He knew he knew what was where I should have been going. But but yeah, no, it was very emotional when they arrived. And then I think there was another layer of that where there's one thing where you've like printed something and made and you you're holding the finished item and that feels really really good. It's a whole different thing where you go into a shop where you go and buy other things that you will go like so like traveling man for example in the UK go to get like novels and things like that and going traveling man for the first time and seeing on shelf.

Z- Yeah.

C- Like in a way it was- I couldn't I couldn't quite- Yeah. Put it together and it was really lovely of seeing a load of my friends who are also as well around the UK just being like oh sh- they show me where it was popular as we went into distribution. So, so yeah, I'd say like that was that two-tier thing of like getting the physical thing is always really magical like the first time around and it is every with every project that we do, but seeing it seeing it in shops, it's definitely three-fold. It's you get the physical thing yourself, it's seeing in shops, but the real magic is where you go into shop and you see yourself being played that or you go to a convention and you see it being played. Oh my god. Especially when it's being played, it's not being run by you for a change because it invalidates that element of being like, "Oh, it is like someone else can do it." Especially the fact that I've run it for a year just for my mates. It gets out of that thing of like I'm just making more friends and just running this for more people and spreading it like in a really slow grassroots way, but it's kind of when you go to conventions and be like, "Oh no, there's like somebody is saying your name outside of a room that you're not in."

Z- Exactly. but they're playing your game outside of a room that you're not in and it's going well.

C- Yeah, it's mad. Like it's crazy. Like like it's it's a it's a very strange feeling. And I said a new a recent one with this one because it's a over the past year or so is um translations. That's another one is seeing proofs and books of something you've written in a completely language and being played by people in other countries in a language that's not not your own is yeah wild.

Z- That's incredible. I love that. Thanks for that extra question in there. Um okay so to a little bit I like this question because I think everyone has those hard days but how do you push? There's two questions and there's a knowing when to stop one's coming next. But the first one is how do you push through on a hard day when everything sort of stacks against you but you need to push through. How do you push through? What do you do?

C- Oh, it's a it's a mixture of things. I'd say I'm very much a if I'm feeling overwhelmed with a lot of stuff going on, which quite often there is with projects that we're doing. I'm a big fan of lists. I'm a huge fan of lists. So, I'm breaking things up like day by day.
So then I can kind of because I think it's if you're feeling overwhelmed on that day, it's not just about what's there on that day. It's about what's all around it. I get that. So to tell me what I tend to do is like, okay, if today's really overwhelming, the rest of the week is probably feeling just as bad. Yes. If I don't get a handle on it. So if I don't have a handle on it already, I'll sit down, I'll make lists of like everything that I need to do, actually think about prioritization.
Now that we've grown a little bit, I actually start thinking about delegation. I never used to do um and now kind of getting a lot more used to but being like okay that is actually work I can let go I don't need to do don't m about it spread the work out um and yeah and then just kind of making those lists individually for each day of like kind of what I feel needs to be done and then I do the reality pass as I kind of call it where I be like actually what can I physically get done in a day because I overestimate I I am terrible for it. I will overestimate all the time and then be will be disappointed when I don't hit all the targets. But when someone says, "Oh, Charlie, what are you doing today?" And you list all of these things. They go, "Wow." And you're like, "But I'm not done. I'm not I'm not done." And it's not exactly what I wanted to do. That was on my list. And and and there is the the sharper edge of lists as well, like if you don't balance them correctly, is that actually it's just slightly too high, uneven, wobbling towers of stuff. Yeah. Um so you have to kind of make those split those towers up as much as you can and recognize when one is still wobbly and then take stuff out of that and give it to somebody else. Put it into next week. Move the deadline. Have that have those have those more difficult conversations that do make you feel uncomfortable but need to happen. Yeah. If you especially if you're working in a team in in a if you're working in a solo regard um cut cut yourself some slack like like just give give yourself a break if if you're working for a client have a chat with a client I used to do client work all the time quite often with some clients especially the bigger ones they ask too much and too short of time frame so it's kind of catching it early on great but obviously making those assessments and having those discussions I think is super important but yeah you just have to be in tune with what your capacity is and how you manage that capacity. And that can be lists, um, it can be kind of like calendars. It it can be kind of however you want to kind of break stuff up. Um, and also the other thing of how I get through a hard day is that when I break up little tasks, when I complete a task, I give myself some form of a treat because ultimately I am I am a small Labrador like Like but that the weird thing is is that like I think people being like that kind of idea of like treat culture. It's it's not what everybody thinks. It's not like you know I'm coming down having a pat of chocolate like every 20 minutes when I do like one tiny thing. It's more like sometimes it can be like I'll come downstairs and I'll make a cup of tea. Needs to do many stay hydrated. Or it's like I'll just pop outside for 10 minutes and go for a short walk around the block. Treat like some would say life maintenance and health. things you should be doing anyway. I say free. If you restructure them as treat in your brain, that's like a double whammy. Exactly. So you get a dopamine hit for being a treat and then you're actually just doing something sweet anyway. So yeah, it so and I think that is a really healthy way to kind of balance yourself when you get how can I kind of put this when because this is something very specific for me. When you get hyperfocused in on something Yeah. and everything else fades away. Of like to remember that you're still a being that has physical needs.

Z- Correct.

C- Yes. Who should who should eat, have a shower, go for a walk, see the see the sun, like it's before it goes down. Before it goes down, which in winter is the worst. So So yeah. So So I think it is remembering all of those things. So yeah, I definitely know that one because now it's getting darker as well. My desk face is a wall. So sometimes I turn around them and I'm like, "Oh my god, he's got no." Yeah. Miss it. So yeah. So lists and treats, brackets, taking care of yourself, but disguising it as don't mean hit.

Z- Yeah. Perfect. So how do you know when you've hit the point where you're like, I need to take a break? And I mean like you can take that however you will, but I think it's more I'm meaning more of like a whoa there, horsey. I need a break for either an hour or week. How do you know what are the signs for you?

C- It it can vary in the different ports of work that I'm doing. Um when it's like editing and layout work. Yeah. It's when I feel a mounting frustration and like I'm teaching on the edge of anger at something. If I feel angry at the work itself, yeah, then that's a sign I need to just take a step back because I'm just too irritated. like and usually it's because Adobe's crashed or like you know something's not working the way it should do. Yeah. Um or in some cases you know there's like a lot of mistakes or something that haven't something unseats you and and that frustration can build and the thing that you don't want to do is basically find yourself at war with your own creation.

Z- Yeah. Because it's not healthy. So usually at those points I try and have walk away and have even if it's just 10 minutes come back at it and just be like right this is what we're going to get done for the rest of the day. I think it was beautiful.

C- Thank you.

Z- At war with your own creation.
Oh your words you and segways nice onto writing.

C- Writing is a bit different. So writing I rarely get frustrated or angry at the part I probably enjoy the most. Um with writing it's more like um So it's not right writer's block in the way that I think people think writer's block is. So this is another this is another pet peeve of mine I think in terms of how people actually perceive like what writer's block is. So so I think for some people when they think writer's block is like I can't write a single word like you know every single source of words has been blocked up and I can't put anything paper writer block is actually different. write book is like you put stuff on page you're like no that delete it you write again it's be like no not quite right there and you get stuck in like an edit loop on like sentence and at that point it's like this isn't working yeah or like the other type that I tend to have sometimes when there's a lot going on or I'm stressed I'm over tired um is the ideas are there they're in my head I can see them but getting them from here onto a page in written form is like pushing trial through a millimeter whip pipe. Like it is awful. It is there. There is a mental pain to kind of trying to push through that. And sometimes with that that is a I set myself a very small goal of like if that is getting really painful then I go down like you know I'm going to get 500 words done.

Z- Yeah.

C- And actually just because sometimes my method and I think some people will disagree with me on this is that like I set a small achievable target. I push through to get those words out in any shape that I can. Yeah. Have a break. Come back here it be like oh Jesus Christ that's not exactly what I mean. Okay. and and then and then rewrite it like like fundamentally but you need to for me anyway I shouldn't say different but like I feel I need to push through and get a certain amount of what's in my brain out um because it there is a similarity with the way I like to kind of think about the brain is like um it's if you've ever seen like overhead maps of LA and the absolute rat's nest of roads than it is. So, the way that I kind of think about my brain is like that. It's endless amounts of roads with lots of little cars rushing around all the time, all kind of and they're all different ideas. And the thing is is that you kind of need to be your own traffic controller because if all lanes of traffic are open, it's chaos. It's too noisy. Um that your mind gets polluted. um uh it gets jammed up like because ideas can collide. Um and it's I'm not talking about like just ideas in terms of like you know like oh yeah I've got processing and a character and then this. It can be that but it's also like if you're thinking about I need to prepare for a convention, I need to email this person. I need to do this. I need to do that. Um it kind of that's that is all aims of traffic open.
So for me is one of the things that I do and I've now some people on my team because I think they very similar to me um is I establish what I call focus days. Um so it's where I kind of set like okay the way I'm going to do it is or focus weeks. I'm going to be working predominantly on this. I will do small admin tasks and have like admin hours on set days and then just I say to the rest team this is how I'm working at the moment. Um if something is on fire call me that's fine.
Like if it's a genuine mer you really struggle doing that's okay but generally don't be like is the bane I think of any creative is the um can you just the can you just request like can you just do this but what cost yeah can you just do this and it's going to take an hour half of your time and um so so the way we talk about in the team because of I'm spot my brother we have other director Matt who's joined us and I had a big chat them actually about because I've kind of managed a creative team. I think this is a a general thing as well is it's about gear shifting of that. Um for me like if I can spend a whole day writing I know I'll get a good amount done. Um if I only have three hours to write and then I need to gear shift into layout for two hours and then deliver something and gear shift into emails and then the expectation is that I need to gear shift back into writing to then finish up what I had. that last gear shift is going to be like and that's where that's where we're back to we've gear shifted you know we've merged into lanes all of the traffic coming in traffic coming in traffic coming in but we're not saying no no more writing states we're shutting off that lane of traffic um it's rush hour it's rush hour and that's and that's when you get jammed up and that's and that's where things get too noisy it gets too polluted and then ultimately nothing gets done because you get gridlock and that's what happens

Z- Incredible metaphors. I am a sucker, like absolute sucker for a visual metaphor for something. A wordmith, right? Number five. What made you say yes or what made you say no that made you say yes? Um because you talked about going from film into making games. It might not be a singular thing, but what is it that made you say, "Yeah, that's I'm going to do it. I'm just going to do it."

C- This mixture of things. I'd say I'd be very remised to mention my not mention say my brother Barney of that shiver I was playing you know with my friends and stuff and and my brother for context so he kind of lives up around where I now live kind of around like Nottingham share and then he owns a friendly local gaming store so doing like Warhammer trading card games that what's it called I'll link it uh seven city collectibles in San Diego Um but yeah, he um he's been from university he kind of discovered his love of games like massively and has kind of been in that world like on the business side for a really long time um from a very early age as well. And I was kind of like and and and played role playing games and stuff as well. So when I made I had it all in this like sprawling notebook with sketches and various things. So I like had all the old sketches of the symbols for the dice and things like that and I kind of brought it up me and came for Christmas basically and I thought oh you like games I actually made a game it's just been like maybe to play it like sometime and showed him it and he kind of sat down and we had like a I seem to remember Barney having like a whiskey having a whiskey out just like we're in our early 20s at this point you know that's cool and now we're drinking coffee fish trying desperately to make sure we for saw blazer.
Um but yeah, no. Um and he read through it and he kind of wing kind of sat there and I remember he post looked up at me and he said, "When do you want to make it?" And and I was like I was like, "What do you mean?" And and so I didn't say yes initially, but he kind of he was like, "Well, it's like you've designed it. You're playing with your friends and it's ultimately to be frank. It's some I sell RPGs in my shop and it's something I've not seen before and I think it is a gap that you've filled because you filled it by making something that you want to play and you love. So this seems like it could be really fun. I can help. Do you do you want to give it a whirl?
So I went Yeah. So So then Barney got more involved and he used to be like a competitive like gathering player like like no obviously knows all of these rule systems. So when it came to like W's writing, I could get a semblance down of kind of what I wanted and get it quite far, but then Barney was then there as kind of like a major editing force on the initial kind of pass turning into a proper rule book, we'd be like, okay, so we need to talk about keywords, for example. So when we talk about something mechanical that happens repetitively throughout the game, we need a capitaliz word that repeats itself throughout the book. That's in the glossery that's here. And and it was like, okay, but yeah, because like in trading card games that's a huge thing of like um you know you know what charge means you know what I'm trying to remember Magic the Gathering terms now I can't because I -

Z- I can only think of like Baulders Gate ones now.

C- Yeah but yeah no but it's yeah like knowing those status effects knowing those things like because um because ultimately what you are doing and this is where the kind of the bit that surprises me in terms of how my brain works and actually adapting to this quite well I feel is it's a programmatic language. It's kind of what you're doing, but you're trying to make a programmatic language palatable to people in a book format. Because ultimately, like in a video game, um you can pull back that programmatic language really, really far by reducing it down to a simple series of inputs, decision points.

(The camera changes)

Z- There we go. So, if anyone's noticed, not if you're listening to it as a podcast, you won't know, but if you are watching it on YouTube, you will now see that the quality of the camera has gone up because I haven't gone to borrow Dale's phone because I filmed mine with videos of random other art. So, what we're going to do is to go seamlessly back into that wrap up talking about um the language of I forgot what we call...

C- So, so like with the language of like games like this, it was um we're talking about like programmatic language which is kind of like rules language um and how like in video games for example, a lot of your stuff is role playing games that stuff's hidden and is produced down into basic inputs and your game engine itself is doing all the calculations. In the case of this, like your GM becomes that your whoever is running the game kind of has that element, but the players do take like you kind of form a game engine together um in terms of how you interact with it, but then you have the the base language that you're all speaking through is that it's really nice to see someone do a dice roll and you're not going, "What does that mean?" like this dice rolls and you see the colors or you see the symbols and everyone reacts after a while and you don't always get that with roleplay games but with this one in particular you see that and you're like oh my god three keys too strange it's great and it's got it own language and I love that it was a big thing with like yeah symbols and color there's a in the in the rule book I call it rolling the knuckle bones because it's that's what I wanted to happen of being to feel like that mad stoop cone in a cave throwing crab bones down and being bad marriage. It's bad marriage. Yes. It's just horror. It's it's and doing that. And I think it's it's always more interesting when other people can read, understand, and interact other people's dice roles. And that that is basically the it's like what we're talking about like with tension. Like when people are doing maths, tension is dead.

Z- Yeah.

C- Um when people are looking at a dice pool realizing the consequence of that straight away. Straight away um the tension is maintained and if not ramped up because the consequence is immediate and in shiver there's elements mechanically that impact story. So in terms for me that's where the special source of design is for me in game design is where you're taking stuff that is more on the mechanical side and like having it interact with story and player narrative. So for the best example like was the Doom Clock.

Z- Yeah.

C- So so like in shiver basically you've got like a fist full of dice. The better you are the more dice you roll. Um and all the dice have different symbols on them. Um one of them is a purple eye with the shiver s on. It's called strange strange symbol. Um so unless you're actively looking for that dice if you roll and you fail um you count up the number of strangers in that pool and you add it to the doom clock which is 60 minute clock. Um we're at 15 minute markers. bad stuff happens.

Z- You say that in game as well. Like bad stuff is gonna happen and we're like oh no.

C- And I think to to quote Harriet and be like what's going to happen? It's like I'm not going to tell you because that's not how horror movies work. It's it's like the whole point is the whole thing that maintains attention is that you don't know. you just know that these markers that are ultimately met by and sown by the your own actions and failures um that is going to be a direct result of that and and I think that is the big thing where it's um with any RPG or kind of game the thing you're looking at is if we're going to go more in the code programatic languages you're looking for input and output or your in the way is is um player decision should always lead to consequence and it is always more satisfying when it is narrative consequence that keeps the momentum of the story moving forward in an interesting way. The last thing you want to have is you rolled a 10. What does a 10 mean? I don't understand. I'm going to do some math now. Um 10 is actually well it's not great but it's not bad. You don't succeed. What do you want to do next? Um, it literally takes the- And I think that's where a lot of people bounce off of D and D. And don't get me wrong, like there is a reason D&D has been the market leader for like a long time. It's fantastic. It's fantastic.

Z- It's fantastic.

C- It allows you to do so much. Um, it I I personally feel like on a book level, it struggles on the roleplay side of it. And it is very much a very comprehensive compact like in a lot of ways. um and has a lot of other interesting stuff that's in there and a lot of meat for people to sit their teeth into and is extremely modular and I think that is the thing that a lot of people on the game side really really enjoy because they can hack it to pieces and do what they like with it. Um some points to absolute death. Um I'm in a group called begging you to play another RPG. Um, but that is a real that's a big side quest that I'm not going to right now because of the amount of jokes that people make about being like, "But couldn't you just do that in fifth edition Dungeons and Dragons?" It's like, and to quote Dr. Ian Malcolm from Jurassic Park, it's like you could and you thought so long about the fact that you could that you didn't actually think about whether you should and maybe you should. Try an indie game or another game and play something different. People, come on.

Z- Did you Did you plan to say this or ?

C- No, that's- No, that's how I feel about it. like good god like it's it's a constant battle for other designers of being like D and D is there in space. D and D is is where it is in the space for a reason the way that players respond to it react to it and develop very strange loyalties to certain elements can sometimes be very baffling very frustrating. Um but it is ultimately something that we kind of like have to deal with as designers because it is there is And I think it's really interesting if you're working in a creative space is that you don't have a lot of creative spaces this very large totem pole near monopoly force. Yeah. That's kind of in the middle of it. Um as like a as a semi genesis point as well. I tangented hard there. No, I love it. Too close to the sun.
Yeah, but to but to wind it back, the the issue that you run into with con um basically player input leading to consequence that has narrative momentum and drive to it is just that is that um it's twofold of D and D. It's what does a 10 mean? Like literally num numbers unless it's a one or a 20, it means nothing to people like because that's how people It's like, "Oh, I fell really, really badly. Oh, I did really really good." And that's people's brains are very binary when it comes to that element. Um because numbers I think don't especially because it's a data set from like 1 to 20 is actually in terms of role play is pretty large. like it's that gradual things you know like you know it's like if I got 10 or an 11 like what's the difference between 10 and 11 like you start to get into those stepping things of like how do you make a judgement and and generally it's like unless it is like a very specified rule generally it is up to the GM to just decide yeah um which is totally fine and it and it gives you a lot of flexibility in many many ways but numbers don't speak to people numbers don't tell unless maybe you've been playing for a very long time and you can automatically recognize that.

Z- But I think with this game, as somebody myself ADHD, playing this game is everything that I hoped Dn D would be straight away like not to be like, but it's like you're in it, you play when you roll the dice, you haven't had to do a massive amount of leg work to and everyone's involved in those dice rolls as well. We're all watching like this. Yeah, you do get that a bit with D and D. It's just it's a lot harder to for me personally to concentrate when there's a lot of

C-Yeah.

Z- in and out, in and out. Whereas with Shiver, it's a we're in, we're doing it, it's moving. Yes. So, the difference is is that to really Yeah, I think you are right.

C- You captured me quite well. Like, it's unfair to say that numbers don't tell stories because they really do. But the problem is is that in order to be able to have numbers tell a story to you, you need to understand what the numbers mean in the context of that game. Yeah. Um, and the numbers in the context of that game can change vastly character to character and what's on their sheet and what classes and bonuses they have. that isn't active impressive information for everybody because you can't be looking at six character sheets all at once as a player in particular as a GM you have to um as as as a player you you kind of don't have that really in Shiba the whole kind of reason behind the symbolic dice and that everything kind of has its element of meaning it represents an aspect of your character also has just like a certain vibe to an action it's like do you do something with force do you do Yes. With kind of you do something that's a bit sling like you do something with like charisma and you like really kind of kind of throw your back into it like in terms of performance and it means that the other dice can if you have success the other dice can color it and kind of give you roleplaying like hints and help of of like how how you succeed. Um it colors failures really really nicely um as well of that um you do something very different and it ends up going in a completely different direction.
Now, as we talk about like with the doom clock, it if you roll a stranger trick to an event, you feel the consequences of your actions in the narrative very sharply. Um, so I'll use an example for example. I can't get up. Um, so say we are in a 1980s. Um, and there's a slasher abroad chasing you down um, you know, running at you with a machete and you want to kick down um, a door into a cabin and and try and hide inside. So, say you run towards it and you kind of you roll your dice and you try and kind of kick it down. Um, you fail, you roll a bunch of strange, it triggers a doom event. Um, I could say you kick the door open, the splinter goes into your leg. Um, and you stumble and you st and you stumble back and you're now moving really really slowly. And as the door slowly swings open, the slasher is magically on the other side. Because if you lose sight of them, they are want to teleport. And we literally put a rule in trigger for that. When you lose sight of a slasher, they can magically teleport to another area where you can't see them and then appear again. The more supernatural ones that are in there. Um, so that's like an emblem of like how that works kind of in a doom like in a Doom clock scenario. Um, so say you shift the system over to DND. Um, so quite often when it comes to doors, um, a lot of people's first one in is I want a lot pick and you're in a group. Um, you do you're encouraged not to split up because of the way the balancing works in time horror movie. I want you to die. Um, no, don't don't tell the group. I said that.

Z- We literally had someone's character just die.

C- He did jump out the window from like two stories off.

Z- I think Harriet wanted him to die.

C- I think she did. Yeah.

Yeah. Harriet was the person controlling. So just to be clear. Um so so yeah and it's and this is a really common phenomenon that you get in D and D and I think it's a lot of GMs if you GMs are out there and you're listening I think you recognize the scenario. Encounter heavy door. Player wants to lockpick door. They're not probably the best at lockpicking. They roll their dice. They fail. They don't actively see anything else around that's going to cause a problem. They keep rolling. Someone else turns up being like, "Oh, maybe I'll roll and see if we can get through." And eventually the scene that you get when you actually imagine it and put in your head of like what the players are actually doing and and this is where the disconnect in terms of narrative happens and the kind of the cinematic element that you're maybe trying to create a table is ultimately you've got five fantasy characters around a door fiddling with a lock for 20 minutes basically brute forcing it through the programmatic language of chance of lobbing a d20 again again again until somebody gets it does happen or it doesn't happen maybe to that extreme extent but it does happen that way and that was one of the big design things in my brain of being like I as a GM hate that it happens because it's it's like for me running games it's like I want things to feel immersive and cinematic. I want people to feel like they're in a movie.
And I know some people be like, they may disagree kind of with that as like an experience, but for Shiver in particular, I want people to feel like they're in a horror movie. And to get away from that, um, the dice need to have sharper consequence and more clear consequence and also more information for you and the player to pivot in a different direction. Um, so like if you roll d if you roll a strange, you trigger a doom event, bad can happen to you. If you roll a load of dice, you can succeed in a totally spectacular way that then helps you discover another thing and moves the story forward even faster. Um, or you can fail forwards in an interesting way. So, the common one I use in conventions to explain the dice system is you try and kick the door down. You roll a load of smarts. You kick the door, you stop your toe, you take more damage. You have a consequence there. However, as you stumble back, um, you notice that one of the four boards is sitting a little bit more strangely compared to the others. You pull it up and you discover there's a key hidden under there to use your brain. Um, and and it's And that's something we encourage uh for both sides of the table to do. So it's like that's something a GM can do. That's something a player can do.
I often use it with younger players. So like we we run games, you know, people up usually um and and some of these kids have never played role playing games before and it's a lot of um okay so like you rolled a load of smart. So like can you think of like a brainy way that your character would get past this door and tell me what it is and then they'll tell me. They'll be like that's what happens. That's sick. That's really cool. They're like awesome.

Z- Yeah.

C- I added to the story because it's it's not about for me role playing is not about putting forward a a puzzle that your a puzzle or a situation that your players are going to have stat statistically overcome. It's about them being involved in a narrative that they can help shape um and ultimately feel the consequences of their actions within that narrative involved as well. And I think that is two very is a very different way to lead design. Um and I think a lot more games are now moving in that direction especially because of the representation of role playing games in the media and like and people like yourself being like this is what I think D and D is or like kind of like what a role playing game is from when you watch like the kids and stranger things playing in the basement. Um Critical Role running their campaigns. um the numerous like actual play podcasts that are kind of out there. Um and but it's not to say that those aren't roleplaying, but it's ultimately they are they are facets of role playing that are refined to be entertainment. That's it. They're refined. That's nice. Yeah. They're they're refined to a point that they are entertainment and not actually a they don't they don't represent the full spectrum of um what a role playing game is like at your actual table.
They don't have the moment where you pause for 10 minutes to find an obscure rule in the book because one of the players has built a really weird character. That can be fun as well. Yeah. But I think this just is a wonderful in its own right.

Z- Yeah. Can I ask you number six, which is um we sort of touched on it right at the start, but what do you think little Charlie would say about what you've created and the job you do now? What do you think?

C- I think he'd be be amazed. I I think he'd be very happy. Yeah. Which makes me very happy that that's kind of been achieved. Um, and I think, yeah, it's an interesting one because I think it's kind of what I think I said earlier of being like, oh yeah, like kind of when I was reading it being like the whole I make a book that would be cool and like that was always a bit of a dream and that kind of got in the path of like moving into adult the world of work that kind of got lost and now it's kind of circled back around to it and I'm happy again. So, good, I'm so glad. So, yeah. So, so I I think they'd be very happy. I think they'd be surprised at what the books are. I think I think that's that that's that's the interesting bit. They'd be like, "Oh, I guess she writes story books." Not not exactly like Yeah. It's not like a book that allows people to tell their own stories through rolling dice. And they'd be like, "Oh, he's a real big nerd, isn't he? Oh, no. Not like this." But no, I don't really think he'd be.

Z- But then he'd watch you playing it around the table with all your friends. He get

C- Yeah.

Z- -your dog and your girlfriend and it will be right. Yeah. Okay. You're a cool nerd.

C- Yeah. He's fundamentally understand it's basically what me and my brother were probably trying to do when playing with Lego together like with characters moving them around and trying to make little games out of it to which Barney would make the rules. I would never understand them fully and Barney would always win. Wow.

Z- It's always something like that, isn't it?

C- Yeah.

Z- I love that. What do you wish more people knew about because I'm sure there are people out there of obviously who want to make their games and do this sort of thing. What do you wish they could know more about the process or people who have not like what do you what's the thing you'd like them to know?

C- I think for me it's it's kind of the view that if you're wanting to get into RPGs and making books and stuff like this that it's not as simple as sitting down just writing an adventure and putting it out there. That's like your first step is what I would say. If you're wanting to get to published book territory or even like published adventure territory or like working for an RPG company, I think the thing I'd like people to know most is that they need to be prepared to wear multiple hats and not be afraid of stepping into areas that they don't know that they're uncomfortable in and try something that's a bit different.
So like for me for example like I just wanted to write really I kind of was very interested in that like there was a time where I was going to illustrate sh and then we swerved away from that and realized that's insanity too much work.

Z- Oh my god as an artist hearing that and you try to do I'll be like yeah-

C- and then we discovered Ben who's one of my sisters in laws friends who's now the kind of the lead artist for Shiver and is amazing. Um, but yeah, it's it's trying your hand at certain things and filling that gap even if it's something that is not necessary the strength you enjoy it. So for me, I do all of the layout in in design and all of our um negotiations and stuff with like our print houses. So like I determine like kind of like the print finishes, like how the books look, all the technical aspects of that, like making sure they print correctly. And I'm not going to lie, when it comes to technical print stuff, it's those dishes. I hate it. like it is not good. It's not fun. Like it's really not fun. But I think the thing is is that I'd like people to know more about the process. I think this is goes broader than just RPGs. That ultimately to make something you love come to life, you're going to have to do things that you don't enjoy, don't necessarily feel that good at. Um but in order for the thing to exist, no one is going to do it for you. Like no one is going to do it for you.
Especially if you're working solo or in a small team, like sometimes you just have to like suck out and just do it and try it. I mean, I was working on uh the first book and then the Gothic books when I was still working um at the university. I was like doing it in my spare time and I taught myself in design. Um in that time, I went on graphic design courses. Um, I had chats with people like in the graphic design department like luckily about like certain issues I was having very sneakily uh to be.

Z- Yeah.

C- Yeah. Like lent on some of my co-workers a little bit um when I was still working there like to kind of just learn a little bit more. Um and that's just the kind of thing that you need to do. Um, and try and find the fun and the passion in it where you can. Um, because otherwise you find yourself capped out at certain points of like if you're really good at writing adventure, then unless you're willing to pay someone to lay it out and artwork it, then really it's going to be like a really good game. You can run at conventions and you run it like at like shows and like friendly local gaming stores. But if you can't lay out into a PDF that's deliverable drive through RPG, you're not even able to sell it digitally. Yeah, because no one is going to pay money for an ugly pain document or I mean like you know when you know you can go on and get a really good adventure laid out you know it's like 15 pages for a fiber like it's it's in terms of like kind of knowing that market and knowing where your weaknesses are and what outlay you're willing to put out into the world in order to make your thing come to life. Whether that's learning it yourself or actually supporting another creative by paying them to do it.
Don't use AI and rely on that. I'm gonna I'm gonna throw that out here now.

Z- Yeah. The creative people are here. We we do charge money, but that's because it's our job and we like to eat food and keep a roof over our head.

C- Yeah. And we'll get the number of fingers right. It's like, come on.

Z- I might not. So, I will forget to count.

C- But yeah, in all in all serious, my you our frustration with AI. It's interesting just as a note um the for people who don't know is that like a role playing fascinating is extremely anti AI on the CR like fiercely. Um so like we're working I can't say who yet but working to go onto a virtual tabletop platform that just would interact with AI content in any way. If anything discover you're using it, they'll ban you. Like it is it's it's yeah like there are spaces out there.
There is hope. Like don't worry like yeah it's um but but it is something to challenge but I think it is also if you are a creative who is hitting a certain wall in your own process. I would implore you plan either learn the skill yourself and upskill yourself and put the time into developing yourself or you know save up the money like you were saving up to buy like a new games console or something like that and invest in another creative to help you bring that to life and it will be a lot more satisfying than going down the the dark art route the dark arts that route that makes it sound cool. Oh, no.
Let's just call it is it's like the lazy tech bro like I think I think that's the issue is that there was an I was watching interview with Gil Toro recently. I think he summarized really nicely when it comes to the creative process. This comes into what also I think I'd love people to know about creative process especially with the spectra of AI hanging over all of us. um is that art has a human cost to it to exist. And I think the thing is is when you look at the stuff that AI is making off of the backs and the training of people who have put that effort in, it's it's very very sad. But I think like kind of when you actually look at the stuff that AI is making compared to what people are making, you know, people who are paid fair wage um to actually make and create and put out into the world is do how much How do you spend when you come across this AI slop? Like you literally just skip past it. When you actually interact with real art, art made by people with passion and kind of an actual story to tell, you spend time with it. I think Gilard Toro put it best is kind of um good art, I'm going to be paraphrasing him a bit here, is basically like kind of good art or art that has kind of meaning that's kind of made with people um demands some element of your presence. like kind of what would you sacrifice to be there? Like are you going to stand 10 hours in line so you can go see the moment Lisa? Um or you know go into the system chapel um or or you know book early so you can go see that film and support it in the cinema like I did with Frankenstein. It's great great film. I'm very obsessed with it at the moment. Um, it's it's yeah, I think we we we sacrifice our our time, our money, our focus for art that means something to us. Um, and the thing that AI generated stuff currently is lacking is that because ultimately it's throwaway. It's very immaterial. It's kind of there and it's exist for a second and we scroll past it. Whilst really we should be investing in artists who will make stuff that will become somebody's favorite game that they play every week or their favorite movie that they watch every year at a certain time of year because it reminds them of something they love. Like that's the kind of thing that we should be putting investment into rather than stuff that actively destroys that pathway and that kind of content for people to actually enjoy the game.

Z- Yeah, I like that. Last question. Is there a moment and that doesn't have to be that changed? Oh. So, so, so I I've already talked about Barney and and kind of Christmas and I think that that is that is a moment. Do you want when you make this that Yeah. Yeah. That that was kind of like the validity stamp of being like, oh, you're your exactly like of just being like, no, like this is actually something. This isn't just a fun throw away creation that you've made. that's only could be joy for one a small group of people. Um Barney's put it quite well of that one of the best things about our jobs is that ultimately we are merchants of joy. We are merchants of of fun of people have sitting down getting together around the table in person.

Z- Tell me you have a name tag. Charlie Menzies is merchant of fun.

C- Yeah. But I think that that came we've already kind of talked about it. I think for me if it was kind of a more personal moment that changed everything is that once the dust had settled with the initial release and shiver um till we went to UK games expo we won um the people's choice award for best new RPG for the core rule book and it was the first thing I ever made in the sphere and after that I kind of accepted that that was real because that took a while um imposter syndrome has privacy discuss holding the award like I don't think this is real was was a a general review of kind of what I actually wanted to achieve creatively with my life because I think the issues for I think I probably alluded to it earlier of being like you know I want to direct a film by the time I'm 30 like I have very specific goals of being like really wanted to like kind of make a film and and kind of get it out there and see it on the cinema screen but then there was also all these time elements of being it needs to be by him like all of this um and all of these kind of very go basically a really big list that was wavering and cheetah list and then actually what it actually took is rather than actually putting that list is that what it need is the whole tower just need to be kicked down and shiver kind of did that it realized it opened up a door in my brain of what my creativity should be and what it should be about because for me I always thought I'm trained in film and TV. I know how to make films. Like this is what I should be doing. I want to direct films. I want to start film. And and then as you see how the towers grow like really really quickly which it really because I just kind of did this as a bit of fun to kind of express myself and do something different and find an avenue to kind of talk to people and tell stories and get people engaged with something that I love like kind of horror as a genre as well as games. And it is the kind of thing there was a bit of a lightning bolt moment with it that the thing that's important to me creating it doesn't matter what the medium is. I might move on from those in the future. I may make things in other mediums and it's the medium itself actually isn't the thing that's important. The thing that's important for me is that I'm always telling stories and encouraging other people to do so. And that's that was the turning point.

Z- You've got it. Yeah, I think as long as the roots are good, what you grow is good and that your roots are in your storytelling and even further down enjoy.

C- Yeah.

Z- Like whatever you grow from that, whether it's games or films or whatever comes in the future, it's going to be good. Right.

C- Exactly. It's I think it's really important just not to get fixated on the medium. I think that's and a lot of people do it and I've taught film and stuff for a while too and you kind of saw it happening all the time. it needs to be this this specific thing in this very way. And it's kind of like when you actually like draw it all kind of back. Um it's kind of like why you have to ask yourself the question of like why you actually wanting to create what is the drive like like what is the thing that you're trying to do through creating? Um and for a lot of us it's expressing ourselves and communicating something. Um and for me like kind of storytelling is is something I feel very very passionate about. So, so in terms of like it's kind of you kind of almost have to find that um my old screenwriting tutor Simon Band like put it really nicely like when you kind of was talking about writing I think I didn't really understand the context as I do now at the time like with any story that you're telling child any screenplay that you're writing the whole thing is you have to find this like what is that nugget of gold within that story like what is it you're trying to say um with something And I think that's what's important. It's it's kind of like what you trying to say, what you trying to do. Are you trying to tell a story? Are you trying to inspire? Are you trying to raise awareness? It's things are way more broad brush when it comes to creativity than just like um like I'm an RPG designer. I only make games. I'm a painter. I only do oil canvases. Yeah. Like it's that's not what it's about. And that's not what people are coming to the shop and looking through the shelves for the next game of yours is. It's not what they're looking for. Exactly. But I think it's very in a world that's so commercial, it's it's something where where where we fall down that hole as creatives really really quickly. Our audiences hilariously don't like but like in terms of viewing our own stuff, they they don't see it that way at all. And sometimes it's talking like about going to conventions is that sometimes meeting people who are fan of Shiver who are playing games kind of snaps you back to reality a bit for a bit about like why you're doing the thing that you're doing. I think that's really important.

Z- What a fantastic interview. Thank you so much. Like my mics to work and then I'm gonna harass Charlie and he will do my interview in a sentence. Um, thank you.

C- My pleasure.

Z- There's been some wonderful nuggets in this interview. I cannot wait to watch it back and yeah, I'm gonna enjoy looking through all of it. Um, so one more time, Shiver, Parable, where can we find you? I'm going to put it all in the the links and stuff below here. Um, got all the way through and enjoyed with us. Thank you, Charlie.

C- Thank you.

Z- Nice. We're going to turn it off and we're going to go harass the dog. That was fab. Thank

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