Since the end of 2025 we've been busy bee's getting February's viewing calendar ready for you!
Join us as we journey from idea to inception, shoot to design, canvas to story and beyond.

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Thank you so much.

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Each week brings a new companion story to devour.
Follow Morgaith's story of passion, creativity and sacrifice.

Beating that mid-week slump with speed-paintings and behind the scenes content of 'the making of'.
Finishing up with a gorgeous behind the scenes of photoshoot day.

To wrap up the whole month join author HB Clark, voice over actor Caitilin Sloan and myself.
We ask the questions that have been burning in our brains about each others process - to give you a true inside look at what goes into creating a project like this one.

Introducing this weeks creative,

Tabletop RPG Creator

Self confessed nerd and passionate creative Charlie talks about realising his childhood dream to write a book and how that spiralled into the well-loved RPG series; Shiver. In this episode he talks openly about the war between AI and creatives alongside the truth of creativity, the intricate programmatic language of role-playing games and the roots of storytelling and joy in his work.

(talking about playing Shiver with his brother and now business partner, Barney)
“…and he  read through it and he kind of sat there and I remember he post  looked up at me and he said, "When do  you want to make it?" And and I was like  I was like, "What do you mean?"
And and  so I didn't say yes initially, but he  kind of he was like, "Well, it's like  you've designed it. You're playing with  your friends and it's ultimately to be  frank. It's some I sell RPGs in my shop and it's something I've not seen before and I think it is a gap that you've  filled because you filled it by making  something that you want to play and you  love.   
So this seems like it could be really fun.”

Zoe - "what do you think little Charlie  would say about what you've created and  the job you do now?
What do you think?"

Charlie - I think he'd be be amazed. I I think  he'd be very happy... make a book - that would be cool and like  that was always a bit of a dream... now it's kind of circled back around  to it and I'm happy again... I think they'd be surprised  at what the books are.   I think I think that's that that's  that's the interesting bit.
They'd be  like, "Oh, I guess he writes story  books." Not not exactly like... Yeah. It's like a book that allows people to  tell their own stories through rolling  dice. And they'd be like,
"Oh, he's a  real big nerd, isn't he? Oh, no."

Z- I bet the first time you held one of  these in your hand was insane.  

C- When it's being published I teared up... I  always had a dream of being like one day  I'll have a book published like a hardcover book. It'll be mine. … t was very  emotional when they arrived.  And then I think there was another layer  of that where there's one thing where  you've like printed something and made  and you you're holding the finished item   and that feels really really good. 

(Talking about the work behind publishing an RPG)
If you're wanting to get to  published book territory or even like  published adventure territory or like  working for an RPG company, I think the  thing I'd like people to know most is  that they need to be prepared to wear  multiple hats and not be afraid of stepping into areas that they don't know that they're  uncomfortable in and try something  that's a bit different.

Especially if you're working solo  or in a small team, like sometimes you  just have to like suck out and just do  it and try it. I mean, I was working on  uh the first book and then the Gothic  books when I was still working um at the  university. I was like doing it in my  spare time and I taught myself In Design. Um in that time, I went on  graphic design courses. Um, I had chats  with people like in the graphic design  department like luckily about like  certain issues I was having to be very  sneaky. 

(Thoughts on AI)
C- Don't use AI and rely on that.  I'm gonna I'm gonna throw that out here  now.   

Z- Yeah. The creative people are here. We  we do charge money, but that's because  it's our job and we like to eat food and  keep a roof over our head.   

C- Yeah. And we'll get the number of  fingers right. It's like, come on.   

Z- I might not. So, I will forget to count.   

C- But yeah, in all in all serious, my frustration with AI. It's  interesting just as a note, um, the for people who don't know is that like role playing,  fascinatingly, is extremely anti AI 

AI generated stuff currently is lacking  is that because ultimately it's  throwaway. It's very immaterial. It's  kind of there and it's exist for a  second and we scroll past it. Whilst  really we should be investing in artists  who will make stuff that will become  somebody's favorite game that they play  every week or their favorite movie that  they watch every year at a certain time  of year because it reminds them of  something they love. Like that's the  kind of thing that we should be putting  investment into rather than stuff that  actively destroys that pathway and that  kind of content for people to actually  enjoy the game.

(On his job)
...the best things about our jobs is  that ultimately we are merchants of joy.  We are merchants of of fun of people  have sitting down getting together  around the table in person. 

The thing  that's important for me is that I'm  always telling stories and encouraging  other people to do so. And that's that  was the turning point.


Z- What's the biggest  challenge you faced in that project? So when you were creating Shiver?

C- Basically  having to  tussle with serious imposter syndrome  because I kind of had a very sudden  sharp route into the industry and was  suddenly like there doing shows and like  the book was published, it was out and  like being sold and I was like, "Oh."  And then It was all just quite a lot.  And I had that kind of feeling because  it's when something like that happens so  fast.  

(Talking about running a Shiver session as GM)
...you're encouraged not  to split up because of the way the balancing works (in DND). It's a horror movie.
(Shiver) I want you to die! Um, no, don't don't  tell the group I said that...

​Play amazing narrative-led horror stories with this award winning
easy-to-learn TTRPG. Whether you want a Slasher, a Horror-Comedy, or a
exciting action-adventure - let SHIVER power your tabletop tales.

If you are able to subscribe to me on YouTube - I would appreciate that so much.
​Thank you.

The Long YouTube Transcript :

C - I think they'd be surprised at what the  books are.   
I I think that's that that's that's the  interesting bit.
They'd be like, "Oh, I  guess she write a story book." It's  like, not exactly like-
Yeah. It's not  like a book that allows people to tell  their own stories through rolling dice  and they be like,
"Oh, he's a real big  nerd, is he? Oh, no." 

C - Good art or art that has kind of meaning  that's kind of made with people um  demands some element of your presence  like kind of what would you sacrifice to  be there like are you going to stand 10  hours in line so you can go see the  moment   later or you know go into the Sistine Chapel...

​Interview Starts
C-so I think you're leaving that in   

Z- 100% like the bit that I just did with  Curtis and me at the end being   

C- Yeah,   

Z- We're children children at heart.  Anyway, hello today everyone. I'm here  with Charlie Menzies and uh we're going to be doing our  lovely interview for four already.  Hopefully all going well. We have these  lovely little chinchilla looking  microphones today. So, we should be  sounding a lot better than we have for  the previous ones. But for anybody who's  here for number four, thanks for being  here. Um, I cannot wait to hear all  about this. It's something very  different today and I'll let Charlie  tell you all about it. Um, but for now,  let's start with what I normally end  with, which is where can people find you  if they want to hear more about you  beyond this?   

C- Absolutely. Um, so you can find us at  www.parablegames.co.uk.  GamesParable on X Twitter, whatever  the hell it is now. 

Z- I don't know. I don't have it.

C- Um, if  you search Parable games on Instagram and  Facebook, you can find us on there.
You  can find some under Shiver RPG as well to  have multiple pages for different  products, which I'll get into in a  minute. Yeah, but Parable Games is the  is the main search and you'll find this

Z- and they're really easy to find because  I tagged them in something the other day  and realized I wasn't following them!  So, then I followed them. I don't know  if you saw that. Okay, let's get  cracking.
Just let me find the questions  which are hopefully in your brain by  now, but they won't be in mine. I can't  remember anything.   Right. Question number one. Let's  start with number one, shall we? What is  your favourite project ever and why?
So  that can be project a game you created  just in general, even if something else  comes up in your brain that's not even  to do with this.   

C- So it's a tough it's a tough one to  answer and I wonder if you feel  similarly like this as a creative. It's  like picking between your kids.   I don't have an answer. I don't know.  Well, you know what I mean?

Z- Yeah.

C- I  don't know what I'm talking about.   That's right.   

Z- He does have one child, but it's got  four legs-  Bear.

C- Yeah. But who is who is number  one? He would get picked over  everything. But but yeah, no, in terms  of like picking between projects, each  one has  something very different to it that  scratches a different part of my brain.  But if I had if I had to pick one, I'd  say it has to be Shiver because it was  the project for me that kind of changed  the course of my creative journey  entirely into a completely different  field, different career, different life.  So, so yeah, so it would be that one. It  is my baby still is very much the one  that is kind of like it was the first  kind of main one that has spiralled up  and so everything. So yeah, have to say.

Z- Excellent choice as well  because I can actually say I have played  Shiver how many times now?   

C- Two. We're in the middle of the second  campaign.   

Z- I think three.   Three.   Oh, wait. No, because did   we did the we did the dinosaur one and  now we are doing the   Did you do

C- Did you not do the submarine  one?   

Z- No.   

C- Oh, that was amazing.

Z- Yes. Anyway, but  yes. So, so yeah. Yeah. Two times but  multiple sessions of each, isn't it?  That's always the weird bit I have to  get around in my brain of being like, is  it sessions? Is it stories kind of like  how we I know because this one's going on for like three sessions now. Um how I would  describe it before you do is a much more  accessible way of playing like a D&D  what are they called when it's a shorter  version a short campaign. It is so much  fun and like the it's not so much about  the numbers and things like that. It's  all about the story and the dice are so  much easier to use and things seem to  move a little faster and it's a little  bit more um creative. Even though D and  D can be really fun, it can also be  quite overwhelming because I've played D  and D found it that way.   

C- For any non- nerds out there watching  this, D and D and D is Dungeons and  Dragons. Um a very famous fantasy role  playing game. Um and that is what I'm in  the business of making is role playing  games. Um I I have also done this in the  past where I start talking  realize oh wait not everyone is coming  at this from an angle of knowing role  playing games but I think my playing  ship you played some Dungeons and  Dragons already  like it does feel like you and their  friends have very much fallen quite  heavily into the hobby which is really  love to see but it's a really common  thing that it's a bit of a as a hobby  it's a bit of creative gateway drug to  gaming in general.

Z-I would say  especially for anyone with a theatre  kid background.

C- You got me.   

Z-I got him. Yeah. So, yeah, thank you for  turning into what I needed to say, which  was, yes, DND stands for Dungeons and  Dragons, which is a table top game. I  just got so into talking about it,  didn't even realize that I was using the  lingo. Um, so yeah, that is what Shiver is in in essence and it's your baby and  your creation and it's incredible. So  give us a kind of  overview of Shiver in general apart from like that's what it is but like what  kind of things does it cover because I  know you've got like nine 10 how many?   

C- It would be the more recent book gets  finished and published it will be 10 I  think roughly. Um but yeah, so Shiver is  a horror role playing game. Um so really  kind of what the game is is this. It is  a book. It is a book that gives you  rules um in order to play a game on the  table top with your friends where one  player takes on the role of the  director. Um in Dungeons and Dragons it  would be the dungeon master for example,  but it's someone who's running the game  and telling the story.

Z- Yeah.   

C- Um your players are playing in that  story and inhabiting characters making  decisions. and when they make decisions  and especially try and do tough things,  they have to roll dice to determine what  happens. So for Shiver, um this took my  love of horror movies and I kind of  thought, what if I tried recreating that  feeling of inviting your friends over  for a horror movie night and you're all  kind of, you know, sitting around with a  popcorn, but you play in the movie?  Because I'm a massive horror fan and I  get really sick of people who are a bit  down on the genre going, "Oh, yeah, I'd  survive that." Yeah. No, they make  really dumb decisions. And it's the  thing as soon as you put players at the  table, as I think you've probably  experienced, you put a little tiny bit  of pressure on them. The the terrible  decisions come out of woodwork. They're  everywhere. And it's a really  fascinating thing to play  around with. Um, and kind of on the flip  side of that, I also wanted to make a  role playing game that was more  accessible as well because I started  playing Dungeons and Dragons and that's  what I was kind of doing for as well as  Cthulhu and some of the other like the  various like big ones. Um, and a lot of  my players really struggled with  numerical dice.
So, we kind of went down  a different route with it to make using  symbol dice. The rules are very kind of  light and easy to kind of get into, but  there's a lot of depth to how you can  kind of play. That is definitely how I  describe it as well because just because  it's light, it doesn't mean that it's  not got that depth and it doesn't mean  that it's not um gripping and like  exciting. Like there's still so much to  it, but it's so much easier to play  because you get to   you're not bogged down in a lot of the  weight of I should be better with words,  but not bogged down by the weight of all  of these rules and like I don't know.  Well, well, I think really kind of what  you're doing there and actually you're  kind of almost calculating  and trying to figure out it's like,  okay, how do I explain like the massy  element of the pluses and minuses of to  an audience   ultimately that's the problem. So, when  you're at a table, so the whole point of  Shiver is basically you're playing a  horror movie with your friends. That's  the whole point.   And in a horror movie, if the characters  suddenly pause and be like, "Right,  okay, right. I'm going to swing my axe.  I'm going to hit the zombie in the head  and hopefully I'll kill it. Otherwise,  it might eat me."

Z- Right. Okay.

C- Okay, so  now I just need to get out this table  and it's plus two here. It's a minus  thing and do the cross division here and  all of a sudden the tension is it's  gone. It's it's evaporated.   

Z- I'm back in like year 10 maths having a  terrible time.   

C- Exactly. And I think for a lot of my  friends that's where they were going.  And then and that's kind of how this  started was basically a homebrew system  that I played with a bunch of my old  screenwriting friends from my course and  like kind of been ding when I was still  living down London and just did it as a  way like we don't have that much time.  We're quite busy. They're bouncing off  of this rule set. You know, I'm I'm  enjoying it. Let's make something that's  really really fun. And basically we  played that for a year before I even  showed it to anyone else like in a  group. Yeah.   

Z- That's amazing.   

C- Yeah. So So Shiver was just like a thing  that I did with friends for as just like  a a fun a fun creative thing. I never  really considered it   um anything until like a very key point  and then that kind of that's what it  kind of evolved into something else from  there. Yeah.   

Z- Amazing. I think that'll probably fit  into one of the other questions. So this  might build on that. What's the biggest  challenge you faced in that project? So  when you were creating Shiver because we  all talked about how good it is and this  and that. What's the biggest challenge  you faced?   

​C- Oh Christ, there's so many.  It's so for a bit of context is I before  designing this game, I was in the film  and TV industry. That's where I kind of  started where my love of like horror and  stories and kind of like cinematic  storytelling generally came from. Um,  and I always thought like that's kind of  where I was going to be going. So, it  was really interesting moving into an  entirely new sphere. Um, and basically  having to  tussle with serious imposter syndrome  because I kind of had a very sudden  sharp route into the industry and was  suddenly like there doing shows and like  the book was published, it was out and  like being sold and I was like, "Oh."  And then It was all just quite a lot.  And I had that kind of feeling because  it's when something like that happens so  fast.   

Z- Yeah.   

C- And you completely pivoted from some  from another creative field. Um and  suddenly that is kind of gaining  traction when there have been people  there who've been you know working in  that industry for like kind of 10 years.  And it was a very strange thing for me  to pass that like I was I was here I was  doing well like people enjoying what I  was making even though fundamentally it  was the first thing I'd ever made that  was a game and I think that was that was  a big one especially with the sugar core  rule set   was like I' i'd never I'd never done  anything like that before and it was  kind of a bit of a hail Mary kickum  we'll probably get into kind of a later  the actual history of it. But yeah, no  kind of like tussling with am I actually  a professional? Do I belong to be in  this space? Do I belong to be do does my  stuff belong in stores? Like like kind  of like people are paying this something  I've made on the regular and playing it.  And it is this kind of interesting thing  of like being very proud of the thing  that you've made.   Yeah.   But it kind of being because it's the  first one, it kind of being like it's  got to be a fluke. like it's like  something something's not quite right  and that has faded. It's always still  there like a little bit. And I think the  other thing as well I will say about the  role pack in general is it's generally  an older  space like in in terms of um like kind  of more I mean like DND was late ' 80s.  So you have much older longer  established country um companies um and  products as well product lines. to me  like D and D obviously like kind of  being one of those but like poor Cthulhu  which is probably one of our biggest  competitors and a game that I absolutely  love um from Chaosium is very much kind  of in that and it was like kind of like  entering in where you know you've got  these basic games that are   straight in with the big dogs basically.   

Z- Yeah.

C- And these and these games are like  you know this is like first edition of a  thing I've never made before and then  you know you're going up against  something like which is on its eighth  ninth edition like Yeah. 89th edition  now though.   Well, we're still first edition, but  it's   but but yeah, and I think it's a really  important thing to talk about because I  think a lot of don't that like you  always have that little voice inside  your head. Oh, maybe it's just me.   

Z- Definitely not.

C- It's not  that like I  even even the world and the people the  product itself is saying is like this is  good everything is fine   if you don't feel  like internally like you've proved  yourself enough in that arena.   

Z- Yeah.   

C- Um there will be that that that anxiety  that's that's doubt that's there that  kind of handing that can kind of happen.  But um and then it turns out the way to  get past that was just to keep  publishing more books which is what we  did. So it's it's definitely faded. Um  but there's there's always like you know  when you try something new so for  example actually here. So um so like I  branched into solo role playing games  with don't play this game. I started  designing it a couple of years ago and  and that kind of got released and that's  that been really well received. It was a  was a very tough book to write. Um but  in terms of that it definitely awoke  solution to being like although it's a  role playing game   it's in a very very different sphere  role playing games it's designed for  singular person to play and be a very  personal experience which is very  different design ethos so so yeah again  with lots of people proving in that  space so so yeah imposter syndrome  that's that's what I would say   side quest question yeah slash statement 

Z- I bet the first time you held one of  these in your hand was insane   

C- When it's being published I teared up.  Like it's so   so like as a kid and and it's  interesting because it's something that  faded away a little bit more of that. I  always had a dream of being like one day  I'll have a book published like a hard  cover book. It'll be mine. It'll be  something I've written and it'll be  done. Um and that kind of like faded  away a bit when I kind of went to film  being oh I'm going to be like directing  a film when I'm 30. Like kind of like  like that energy kind of went more that  way. Um when it turns out that actually  um Kids Charlie was was more realistic. 

Z- Um he he knew what was up.

C- He knew he  knew what was where I should have been  going. But but yeah, no, it was very  emotional when they arrived.  And then I think there was another layer  of that where there's one thing where  you've like printed something and made  and you you're holding the finished item   and that feels really really good.   It's a whole different thing where you  go into a shop where you go and buy  other things that you will go like so  like traveling man for example in the UK  go to get like novels and things like  that and going traveling man for the  first time   and seeing on shelf.

Z- Yeah.   

C- Like in a way it was-  I couldn't I couldn't quite-   Yeah. Put it together and it was really  lovely of seeing a load of my friends  who are also as well around the UK just  being like oh sh- they show me where it  was popular as we went into distribution. So,  so yeah, I'd say like that was that  two-tier thing of like getting the  physical thing is always really magical  like the first time around and it is  every with every project that we do, but  seeing it seeing it in shops, it's  definitely three-fold. It's you get the  physical thing yourself,   it's seeing in shops, but the real magic  is where you go into shop and you see  yourself being played   that or you go to a convention and you  see it being played.   Oh my god. Especially when it's being  played, it's not being run by you for a  change because it invalidates that  element of being like,   "Oh, it is like someone else can do it."   Especially the fact that I've run it for  a year just for my mates. It gets out of  that thing of like I'm just making more  friends and just running this for more  people and spreading it like in a really  slow grassroots way, but it's kind of  when you go to conventions and be like,  "Oh no, there's like   somebody is saying your name outside of  a room that you're not in."   

Z- Exactly. but they're playing your game  outside of a room that you're not in and  it's going well.   

C- Yeah, it's mad. Like it's crazy. Like  like it's it's a it's a very strange  feeling. And I said a new a recent one  with this one because it's a over the  past year or so is um translations.  That's another one is seeing proofs and  books of something you've written in a  completely language and being played by  people in other countries in a language  that's not not your own is yeah wild.   

Z- That's incredible. I love that. Thanks  for that extra question in there. Um okay so to a little bit I like this  question because I think everyone has  those hard days but how do you push?  There's two questions and there's a  knowing when to stop one's coming next.  But the first one is how do you push  through on a hard day when everything  sort of stacks against you but you need  to push through. How do you push  through? What do you do?   

C- Oh, it's a it's a mixture of things. I'd  say I'm very much a if I'm feeling  overwhelmed with a lot of stuff going  on, which quite often there is with  projects that we're doing.   I'm a big fan of lists. I'm a huge fan  of lists. So, I'm breaking things up  like day by day.
So then I can kind of  because I think it's if you're feeling  overwhelmed on that day, it's not just  about what's there on that day. It's  about what's all around it. I get that.  So to tell me what I tend to do is like,  okay, if today's really overwhelming,  the rest of the week is probably feeling  just as bad. Yes. If I don't get a  handle on it. So if I don't have a  handle on it already, I'll sit down,  I'll make lists of like everything that  I need to do, actually think about  prioritization.
Now that we've grown a  little bit, I actually start thinking  about delegation. I never used to do um  and now kind of getting a lot more used  to but being like okay that is actually  work I can let go I don't need to do  don't m about it spread the work out   um and yeah and then just kind of making  those lists individually for each day of  like kind of what I feel needs to be  done   and then I do the reality pass as I kind  of call it where I be like actually what  can I physically get done in a day  because I   overestimate   I I am terrible for it. I will  overestimate all the time and then be  will be disappointed when I don't hit  all the targets.   But when someone says, "Oh, Charlie,  what are you doing today?" And you list  all of these things. They go, "Wow." And  you're like, "But I'm not done.   I'm not I'm not done." And it's not  exactly what I wanted to do. That was on  my list.   And and and there is the the sharper  edge of lists as well, like if you don't  balance them correctly, is that actually  it's just  slightly too high, uneven, wobbling  towers of stuff.   Yeah.   Um so you have to kind of make those  split those towers up as much as you can  and recognize when one is still wobbly  and then take stuff out of that and give it to somebody else. Put it into next  week. Move the deadline. Have that have  those have those more difficult  conversations that do make you feel  uncomfortable but need to happen.   Yeah. If you especially if you're  working in a team in in a if you're  working in a solo regard um cut cut  yourself some slack like like just give  give yourself a break if if you're  working for a client have a chat with a  client I used to do client work all the  time quite often with some clients  especially the bigger ones they ask too  much and too short of time frame so it's  kind of catching it early on great but  obviously making those assessments and  having those discussions I think is  super important but yeah you just have  to be in tune with what your capacity is  and how you manage that capacity. And  that can be lists, um, it can be kind of  like calendars. It it can be kind of  however you want to kind of break stuff  up. Um, and also the other thing of how  I get through a hard day is that when I  break up little tasks, when I complete a  task, I give myself some form of a treat  because ultimately I am I am a small  Labrador like Like but that the weird  thing is is that like I think people  being like that kind of idea of like  treat culture.   It's it's not what everybody thinks.  It's not like you know I'm coming down  having a pat of chocolate like every 20  minutes when I do like one tiny thing.   It's more like sometimes it can be like  I'll come downstairs and I'll make a cup  of tea. Needs to do many stay hydrated.   Or it's like I'll just pop outside for  10 minutes and go for a short walk  around the block. Treat   like some would say life maintenance and  health. things you should be doing  anyway. I say free.   If you restructure them as treat in your  brain, that's like a double whammy.   Exactly. So you get a dopamine hit for  being a treat and then you're actually  just doing something sweet anyway. So  yeah, it so and I think that is a really  healthy way to kind of balance yourself  when you get  how can I kind of put this when because  this is something very specific for me.  When you get hyperfocused in on  something   Yeah. and everything else fades away.   Of like to remember that you're still a  being that has physical needs.

Z- Correct.   

C- Yes. Who should who should eat, have a  shower, go for a walk, see the see the  sun, like it's   before it goes down.   Before it goes down, which in winter is  the worst. So So yeah. So So I think it  is remembering all of those things. So  yeah,   I definitely know that one because now  it's getting darker as well. My desk  face is a wall. So sometimes I turn  around them and I'm like, "Oh my god,  he's got no."   Yeah.   Miss it.   So yeah. So lists and treats, brackets,  taking care of yourself, but disguising  it as don't mean hit.   

Z- Yeah.   Perfect. So how do you know when you've  hit the point where you're like, I need  to take a break? And I mean like you can  take that however you will, but I think  it's more I'm meaning more of like a  whoa there, horsey. I need a break for  either an hour or week. How do you know  what are the signs for you?   

C- It it can vary in the different ports of  work that I'm doing. Um when it's like  editing and layout work.   Yeah.   It's when I feel a mounting frustration  and like I'm teaching on the edge of  anger at something. If I feel angry at  the work itself,   yeah,   then that's a sign I need to just take a  step back because I'm just too  irritated. like and usually it's because  Adobe's crashed or like you know  something's not working the way it  should do.   Yeah.   Um or in some cases you know there's  like a lot of mistakes or something that  haven't something unseats you and and  that frustration can build   and the thing that you don't want to do  is basically find yourself at war with  your own creation.

Z- Yeah. Because it's  not healthy. So usually at those points  I try and have walk away and have even  if it's just 10 minutes come back at it  and just be like right this is what  we're going to get done for the rest of  the day.   I think it was beautiful.   

C- Thank you.   

Z- At war with your own creation.
Oh your  words you and segways nice onto writing. 

C- Writing is a bit different. So writing I  rarely get frustrated or angry at the  part I probably enjoy the most.   Um  with writing it's more like um  So it's not right writer's block in the  way that I think people think writer's  block is. So  this is another this is another pet  peeve of mine I think in terms of how  people actually perceive like what  writer's block is. So so I think for  some people when they think writer's  block is like I can't write a single  word like you know every single source  of words has been blocked up and I can't  put anything paper writer block is  actually different. write book is like  you put stuff on page you're like no  that delete it you write again it's  be like no not quite right there and you  get stuck in like an edit loop on like  sentence and at that point it's like  this isn't working yeah   or like the other type that I tend to  have sometimes when there's a lot going  on or I'm stressed I'm over tired um is  the ideas are there they're in my head I  can see them but getting them from here  onto a page in written form  is like pushing trial through a  millimeter whip pipe. Like it is awful.  It is there. There is a mental pain to  kind of trying to   push through that. And sometimes with  that that is a I set myself a very small  goal of like if that is getting really  painful then I go down like you know I'm  going to get 500 words done.   

Z- Yeah.

C- And actually just because  sometimes my method and I think some  people will disagree with me on this is  that like I set a small achievable  target. I push through to get those  words out in any shape that I can.   Yeah.   Have a break. Come back here it be like  oh Jesus Christ that's not exactly what  I mean. Okay. and and then and then  rewrite it like like fundamentally but  you need to  for me anyway I shouldn't say different  but like I feel I need to push through  and get a certain amount of what's in my  brain out um because it there is a  similarity with  the way I like to kind of think about  the brain is like um   it's if you've ever seen like overhead  maps of LA and the absolute rat's nest  of roads  than it is.   So, the way that I kind of think about  my brain is like that. It's endless  amounts of roads with lots of little  cars rushing around all the time, all  kind of and they're all different ideas.   And the thing is is that you kind of  need to be your own traffic controller  because if all lanes of traffic are  open,   it's chaos. It's too noisy. Um that your  mind gets polluted. um uh it gets jammed  up like because ideas can collide. Um  and it's I'm not talking about like just  ideas in terms of like you know like oh  yeah I've got processing and a character  and then this. It can be that but it's  also like if you're thinking about I  need to prepare for a convention, I need  to email this person. I need to do this.  I need to do that.   Um it kind of that's that is all aims of  traffic open.
So for me is one of the  things that I do and I've now some  people on my team because I think they  very similar to me um is I establish  what I call focus days. Um so it's where  I kind of set like okay the way I'm  going to do it is or focus weeks. I'm  going to be working predominantly on  this.   I will do small admin tasks and have  like admin hours on set days and then  just I say to the rest team this is how  I'm working at the moment. Um if  something is on fire call me that's  fine.
Like if it's a genuine mer you  really struggle doing that's okay but  generally don't be like  is the bane I think of any creative is  the um can you just the can you just  request like can you just do this   but what cost   yeah can you just do this and it's going  to take an hour half of your time and um  so so the way we talk about in the team  because of I'm spot my brother we have  other director Matt who's joined us and  I had a big chat them actually about  because I've kind of managed a creative  team.   I think this is a a general thing as  well is it's about gear shifting of  that. Um for me like if I can spend a  whole day writing I know I'll get a good  amount done.   Um if I only have three hours to write  and then I need to gear shift into  layout for two hours and then deliver  something and gear shift into emails and  then the expectation is that I need to  gear shift back into writing to then  finish up what I had. that last gear  shift is going to be like and that's  where that's where we're back to we've  gear shifted you know we've merged into  lanes all of the traffic coming in  traffic coming in traffic coming in but  we're not saying no no more writing  states we're shutting off that lane of  traffic   um it's rush hour   it's rush hour and that's and that's  when you get jammed up and that's and  that's where things get too noisy it  gets too polluted and then ultimately  nothing gets done because you get  gridlock and that's what happens   

Z- Incredible metaphors. I am a sucker,  like absolute sucker for a visual  metaphor for something. A wordmith,  right? Number five. What made you say  yes   or what made you say no that made you  say yes?   Um because you talked about going from  film into making games.   It might not be a singular thing, but  what is it that made you say, "Yeah,  that's I'm going to do it. I'm just  going to do it."

C- This mixture of things.  I'd say I'd be very remised to mention  my not mention say my brother Barney of  that shiver I was playing you know with  my friends and stuff and and my brother  for context so he kind of lives up  around where I now live kind of around  like Nottingham share and then he owns a  friendly local gaming store so doing  like Warhammer trading card games that   what's it called I'll link it   uh seven city collectibles in San Diego  Um but yeah, he um he's been from  university he kind of discovered his  love of games like massively   and has kind of been in that world like  on the business side for a really long  time um from a very early age as well.  And I was kind of like and and and  played role playing games and stuff as  well. So when I made I had it all in  this like sprawling notebook with  sketches and various things. So I like  had all the old sketches of the symbols  for the dice and things like that   and I kind of brought it up me and came  for Christmas basically and I thought oh  you like games I actually made a game  it's just been like maybe to play it  like sometime and showed him it and he  kind of sat down and we had like a I  seem to remember Barney having like a  whiskey having a whiskey out just like  we're in our early 20s at this point you  know   that's cool and   now we're drinking coffee   fish  trying desperately to make sure we for  saw blazer.
Um but yeah, no. Um and he  read through it and he kind of wing kind  of sat there and I remember he post  looked up at me and he said, "When do  you want to make it?" And and I was like  I was like, "What do you mean?" And and  so I didn't say yes initially, but he  kind of he was like, "Well, it's like  you've designed it. You're playing with  your friends and it's ultimately to be  frank. It's some I sell RPGs in my shop  and it's something I've not seen before   and I think it is a gap that you've  filled because you filled it by making  something that you want to play and you  love.   So this seems like it could be really  fun. I can help. Do you do you  want to give it a whirl?   
So I went Yeah. So So then Barney got  more involved and he used to be like a  competitive like gathering player like  like no obviously knows all of these  rule systems. So when it came to like  W's writing, I could get a semblance  down of kind of what I wanted and get it  quite far, but then Barney was then  there as kind of like a major editing  force on the initial kind of pass  turning into a proper rule book, we'd be  like, okay, so we need to talk about  keywords, for example. So when we talk  about something mechanical that happens  repetitively throughout the game, we  need a capitaliz word that repeats  itself throughout the book. That's in  the glossery that's here. And and it was  like, okay, but yeah, because like in  trading card games that's a huge thing  of like um   you know you know what charge means you  know what I'm trying to remember Magic  the Gathering terms now I can't because  I  -

Z- I can only think of like Baulders Gate  ones now.   

C- Yeah but yeah no but it's yeah like  knowing those status effects knowing  those things like because um because  ultimately what you are doing and this  is where the kind of the bit that  surprises me in terms of how my brain  works and actually adapting to this  quite well I feel is it's a programmatic  language. It's kind of what you're  doing, but you're trying to make a  programmatic language palatable to  people in a book format. Because  ultimately, like in a video game,   um you can pull back that programmatic  language really, really far by reducing  it down to a simple series of inputs, decision points.

(The camera changes)

Z- There we go.   So, if anyone's noticed, not if you're  listening to it as a podcast, you won't  know, but if you are watching it on  YouTube, you will now see that the  quality of the camera has gone up  because I haven't gone to borrow Dale's  phone because I filmed mine with videos  of random other art. So, what we're  going to do is to go seamlessly back  into that wrap up talking about um the language of I forgot what we call...

C- So,  so like with the language of like games  like this, it was um we're talking about  like programmatic language which is kind  of like rules language um and how like  in video games for example, a lot of  your stuff is role playing games that  stuff's hidden and is produced down into  basic inputs and your game engine itself  is doing all the calculations. In the  case of this, like your GM becomes that  your whoever is running the game kind of  has that element, but the players do  take like you kind of form a game engine  together um in terms of how you interact  with it, but then you have the the base  language that you're all speaking  through is that   it's really nice to see someone do a  dice roll and you're not going, "What  does that mean?" like this dice rolls  and you see the colors or you see the  symbols and everyone reacts after a  while and you don't always get that with  roleplay games but with this one in  particular you see that and you're like  oh my god three keys too strange it's  great and it's got it own language and I  love that   it was a big thing with like yeah  symbols and color there's a in the in  the rule book I call it rolling the  knuckle bones because it's that's what I  wanted to happen of being   to feel like that mad stoop cone in a  cave throwing crab bones down and being  bad marriage.  It's bad marriage. Yes. It's just  horror. It's it's and doing that. And I  think it's it's always more interesting  when other people can read, understand,  and interact other people's dice roles.   And that that is basically the it's like  what we're talking about like with  tension. Like when people are doing  maths, tension is dead.

Z- Yeah.   

C- Um when people are looking at a dice  pool realizing the consequence of that   straight away.   Straight away um the tension is  maintained and if not ramped up because  the consequence is immediate and in  shiver there's elements mechanically  that impact story. So in terms for me  that's where the special source of  design is for me in game design is where  you're taking stuff that is more on the  mechanical side and like having it  interact with story and player  narrative. So for the best example like  was the Doom Clock.   

Z- Yeah.   

C- So so like in shiver basically you've  got like a fist full of dice. The better  you are the more dice you roll. Um and  all the dice have different symbols on  them. Um one of them is a purple eye  with the shiver s on. It's called  strange strange symbol. Um so unless  you're actively looking for that dice if  you roll and you fail um you count up  the number of strangers in that pool and  you add it to the doom clock which is 60  minute clock. Um we're at 15 minute  markers. bad stuff happens.   

Z- You say that in game as well. Like bad  stuff is gonna happen and we're like oh no.   

C- And I think to to quote Harriet and be  like what's going to happen? It's like  I'm not going to tell you because that's  not how horror movies work. It's it's  like the whole point is the whole thing  that maintains attention is that you  don't know. you just know that these  markers   that are ultimately met by  and sown by the your own actions and  failures um that is going to be a direct  result of that and and I think that is  the big thing where it's um with any RPG  or kind of game the thing you're looking  at is if we're going to go more in the  code programatic languages you're  looking for input and output or your in  the way is is um player decision  should always lead to consequence and it  is always more satisfying when it is  narrative consequence that keeps the  momentum of the story moving forward in  an interesting way.   The last thing you want to have is you  rolled a 10. What does a 10 mean? I  don't understand. I'm going to do some  math now. Um 10 is actually well it's  not great but it's not bad. You don't  succeed. What do you want to do next?  Um, it literally takes the- And I think  that's where a lot of people bounce off  of D and D. And don't get me wrong, like  there is a reason D&D has been the  market leader for like a long time. It's  fantastic. It's fantastic.

Z- It's  fantastic.

C- It allows you to do so much.  Um, it I I personally feel like on a  book level, it struggles on the roleplay  side of it. And it is very much a very  comprehensive compact like in a lot of  ways. um and has a lot of other  interesting stuff that's in there and a  lot of meat for people to sit their  teeth into and is extremely modular and  I think that is the thing that a lot of  people on the game side really really  enjoy because they can hack it to pieces  and do what they like with it.   Um some points to absolute death. Um I'm  in a group called begging you to play  another RPG. Um, but that is a real  that's a big side quest that I'm not  going to right now because of the amount  of jokes that people make about being  like, "But couldn't you just do that in  fifth edition Dungeons and Dragons?"  It's like, and to quote Dr. Ian Malcolm  from Jurassic Park, it's like you could  and you thought so long about the fact  that you could that you didn't actually  think about whether you should and maybe  you should. Try an indie game or another  game and play something different.  People, come on.   

Z- Did you Did you plan to say this or ?

C- No, that's- No, that's how I feel about  it. like good god like it's it's a  constant  battle for other designers of being like  D and D is there in space. D and D is is where it is in the space  for a reason the way that players  respond to it react to it and develop  very strange loyalties to certain  elements can sometimes be very baffling  very frustrating. Um but it is  ultimately something that we kind of  like have to deal with as designers  because it is there is And I think it's  really interesting if you're working in  a creative space is that you don't have  a lot of creative spaces this very large  totem pole near monopoly force. Yeah.  That's kind of in the middle of it. Um  as like a as a semi genesis point as  well. I tangented hard there. No, I love  it. Too close to the sun.
Yeah, but to but to wind it back,  the the issue that you run into with con  um basically player input leading to  consequence that has narrative momentum  and drive to it is just that is that um  it's twofold of D and D. It's what does  a 10 mean? Like literally num numbers  unless it's a one or a 20, it means  nothing to people like because that's  how people It's like, "Oh, I fell really, really badly. Oh, I did really  really good." And that's people's brains  are very binary when it comes to that  element. Um because numbers I think  don't especially because it's a data set  from like 1 to 20 is actually in terms  of role play is pretty large. like it's  that gradual things you know like you  know it's like if I got 10 or an 11 like  what's the difference between 10 and 11  like you start to get into those  stepping things of like how do you make  a judgement and and generally it's like  unless it is like a very specified rule  generally it is up to the GM to just  decide yeah   um which is totally fine and it and it  gives you a lot of flexibility in many  many ways but numbers don't speak to  people numbers don't tell   unless maybe you've been playing for a  very long time and you can automatically  recognize that.

Z- But I think with this  game,   as somebody myself ADHD, playing this  game is everything that I hoped Dn D   would be straight away like not to be  like, but it's like you're in it, you  play when you roll the dice, you haven't  had to do a massive amount of leg work  to and everyone's involved in those dice  rolls as well. We're all watching like  this. Yeah, you do get that a bit with D  and D. It's just it's a lot harder to  for me personally to concentrate when  there's a lot of  

C-Yeah.   

Z- in and out, in and out. Whereas with  Shiver, it's a we're in, we're doing it,  it's moving.  Yes. So, the difference is is that to  really Yeah, I think you are right.

C- You  captured me quite well. Like, it's  unfair to say that numbers don't tell  stories because they really do. But the  problem is is that in order to be able  to have numbers tell a story to you, you  need to understand what the numbers mean  in the context of that game.   Yeah.   Um, and the numbers in the context of  that game can change vastly   character to character and what's on  their sheet and what classes and bonuses  they have. that isn't active impressive  information for everybody because you  can't be looking at six character sheets  all at once   as a player in particular as a GM you  have to um as as as a player you you  kind of don't have that really in Shiba  the whole kind of reason behind the  symbolic dice and that everything kind  of has its element of meaning it  represents an aspect of your character  also has just like a certain vibe to an  action it's like do you do something  with force do you do Yes.   With kind of you do something that's a  bit sling like you do something with  like charisma and you like really kind  of kind of throw your back into it like  in terms of performance and   it means that the other dice can if you  have success the other dice can color it  and kind of give you roleplaying like  hints and help of of like how how you  succeed. Um it colors failures really  really nicely um as well of that um you  do something very different and it ends  up going in a completely different  direction.
Now, as we talk about like  with the doom clock, it if you roll a  stranger trick to an event, you feel the  consequences of your actions in the  narrative very sharply. Um, so I'll use  an example for example.  I can't get up.  Um,   so say we are in a 1980s. Um, and  there's a slasher abroad chasing you  down um, you know, running at you with a  machete and you want to kick down um, a  door into a cabin and and try and hide  inside. So, say you run towards it and  you kind of you roll your dice and you  try and kind of kick it down. Um, you  fail, you roll a bunch of strange, it  triggers a doom event. Um, I could say  you kick the door open, the splinter  goes into your leg. Um, and you stumble  and you st and you stumble back and  you're now moving really really slowly.  And as the door slowly swings open, the  slasher is magically on the other side.  Because if you lose sight of them, they  are want to teleport. And we literally  put a rule in trigger for that. When you  lose sight of a slasher, they can  magically teleport to another area where  you can't see them and then appear  again. The more supernatural ones that  are in there. Um, so that's like an  emblem of like how that works kind of in  a doom like in a Doom clock scenario.   Um, so say you shift the system over to  DND. Um, so quite often when it comes to  doors, um, a lot of people's first one  in is I want a lot pick and you're in a  group. Um, you do you're encouraged not  to split up because of the way the  balancing works in time horror movie.  I want you to die. Um, no, don't don't  tell the group. I said that.   

Z- We literally had someone's character  just die.   

C- He did jump out the window from like two  stories off.

Z- I think Harriet wanted him to die.   

C- I think she did. Yeah.

Yeah. Harriet was  the person controlling. So just to be  clear. Um so so yeah and it's and this  is a really common phenomenon that you  get in D and D and I think it's a lot of  GMs if you GMs are out there and you're  listening I think you recognize the  scenario. Encounter heavy door. Player  wants to lockpick door. They're not  probably the best at lockpicking. They  roll their dice. They fail. They don't  actively see anything else around that's  going to cause a problem. They keep  rolling. Someone else turns up being  like, "Oh, maybe I'll roll and see if we  can get through." And eventually the  scene that you get when you actually  imagine it and put in your head of like  what the players are actually doing and  and this is where the disconnect in  terms of narrative happens and the kind  of the cinematic element that you're  maybe trying to create a table is  ultimately you've got five fantasy  characters around a door fiddling with a  lock for 20 minutes basically brute  forcing it through the programmatic  language of chance of lobbing a d20  again again again until somebody gets  it does happen or it doesn't happen  maybe to that extreme extent but it does  happen that way and that was one of the  big design things in my brain of being  like I as a GM hate that it happens  because it's it's like for me running  games it's like I want things to feel  immersive and cinematic. I want people  to feel like they're in a movie.
And I  know some people be like, they may  disagree kind of with that as like an  experience, but for Shiver in  particular, I want people to feel like  they're in a horror movie. And to get  away from that, um, the dice need to  have sharper consequence and more clear  consequence   and also more information for you and  the player to pivot in a different  direction. Um, so like if you roll d if  you roll a strange, you trigger a doom  event, bad can happen to you. If  you roll a load of dice, you can succeed  in a totally spectacular way that then  helps you discover another thing and  moves the story forward even faster. Um,  or you can fail forwards in an  interesting way. So, the common one I  use in conventions to explain the dice  system is you try and kick the door  down. You roll a load of smarts. You  kick the door, you stop your toe, you  take more damage. You have a consequence  there. However, as you stumble back, um,  you notice that one of the four boards  is sitting a little bit more strangely  compared to the others. You pull it up  and you discover there's a key hidden  under there to use your brain. Um, and  and it's And that's something we  encourage uh for both sides of the table  to do. So it's like that's something a  GM can do. That's something a player can  do.
I often use it with younger players.  So like we we run games, you know,  people up usually um and and some of  these kids have never played role  playing games before and it's a lot of  um okay so like you rolled a load of  smart. So like can you think of like a  brainy way that your character would get  past this door and tell me what it is  and then they'll tell me. They'll be  like that's what happens. That's sick.  That's really cool. They're like  awesome.

Z- Yeah.

C- I added to the story  because it's it's not about for me role  playing is not about putting forward a a  puzzle that your a puzzle or a situation  that your players are going to have stat  statistically overcome.   It's about them being involved in a  narrative that they can help shape um  and ultimately feel the consequences of  their actions within that narrative  involved as well. And I think that is  two very is a very different way to lead  design. Um and I think a lot more games  are now moving in that direction   especially because of the representation  of role playing games in the media and  like and people like yourself being like  this is what I think D and D  is or like kind of like what a role  playing game is from when you watch like  the kids and stranger things playing in  the basement. Um Critical Role running  their campaigns. um the numerous like  actual play podcasts that are kind of  out there. Um and but it's not to say  that those aren't roleplaying, but it's  ultimately they are they are facets of  role playing that are refined to be  entertainment.   That's it. They're refined. That's nice.   Yeah. They're they're refined to a point  that they are entertainment and not  actually a   they don't they don't represent the full  spectrum of um what a role playing game  is like at your actual table.
They don't  have the moment where you pause for 10  minutes to find an obscure rule in the  book because one of the players has  built a really weird character.  That can be fun as well.   Yeah.   But I think this just is a wonderful in  its own right.   

Z- Yeah.   Can I ask you number  six, which is um we sort of touched on  it right at the start,   but what do you think little Charlie  would say about what you've created and  the job you do now? What do you think? 

C- I think he'd be be amazed. I I think  he'd be very happy.   Yeah.   Which makes me very happy that that's  kind of been achieved.  Um, and I think, yeah, it's an  interesting one because I think it's  kind of what I think I said earlier of  being like, oh yeah, like kind of when I  was reading it being like the whole I  make a book that would be cool and like  that was always a bit of a dream and  that kind of got   in the path of like moving into adult  the world of work that kind of got lost  and now it's kind of circled back around  to it and I'm happy again. So,   good, I'm so glad.   So, yeah. So, so I I think they'd be  very happy. I think they'd be surprised  at what the books are.   I think I think that's that that's  that's the interesting bit. They'd be  like, "Oh, I guess she writes story  books." Not not exactly like Yeah. It's  not like a book that allows people to  tell their own stories through rolling  dice. And they'd be like, "Oh, he's a  real big nerd, isn't he? Oh, no.   Not like this."   But no, I don't really think he'd be.   

Z- But then he'd watch you playing it  around the table with all your friends. He get

C- Yeah.

Z- -your dog and your  girlfriend and it will be right. Yeah. Okay. You're a cool nerd.   

C- Yeah. He's fundamentally understand it's  basically what me and my brother were  probably trying to do when playing with  Lego together like with characters  moving them around and trying to make  little games out of it to which Barney  would make the rules. I would never  understand them fully and Barney would  always win.   Wow.

Z- It's always something like that,  isn't it?   

C- Yeah.   

Z- I love that.  What do you wish more people knew about  because I'm sure there are people out  there of obviously who want to make  their games and do this sort of thing.  What do you wish they could know more  about the process or people who have not  like what do you what's the thing you'd  like them to know?

C- I think for me it's  it's kind of the view that if you're  wanting to get into RPGs and making  books and stuff like this that it's not  as simple as sitting down just writing   an adventure and putting it out there.  That's like your first step is what I  would say. If you're wanting to get to  published book territory or even like  published adventure territory or like  working for an RPG company, I think the  thing I'd like people to know most is  that they need to be prepared to wear  multiple hats   and not be afraid of stepping into areas  that they don't know that they're  uncomfortable in and try something  that's a bit different.
So like for me  for example like I just wanted to write  really I kind of was very interested in  that like there was a time where I was  going to illustrate sh and then we  swerved away from that and realized  that's insanity too much work.   

Z- Oh my god as an artist hearing that and  you try to do I'll be like  yeah-

C- and then we discovered Ben who's one of  my sisters in laws friends who's now the kind of the  lead artist for Shiver and is amazing. Um,  but yeah, it's it's trying your hand at  certain things and filling that gap even  if it's something that is not necessary  the strength you enjoy it. So for me, I  do all of the layout in in design and  all of our um negotiations and stuff  with like our print houses. So like I  determine like kind of like the print  finishes, like how the books look, all  the technical aspects of that, like  making sure they print correctly.   And I'm not going to lie, when it comes  to technical print stuff, it's those  dishes. I hate it. like it is not good.  It's not fun. Like it's really not fun.  But I think the thing is is that I'd  like people to know more about the  process. I think this is goes broader  than just RPGs. That ultimately to make  something you love come to life, you're  going to have to do things that you  don't enjoy, don't necessarily feel that  good at. Um but in order for the thing  to exist, no one is going to do it for  you. Like no one is going to do it for  you.
Especially if you're working solo  or in a small team, like sometimes you  just have to like suck out and just do  it and try it. I mean, I was working on  uh the first book and then the Gothic  books when I was still working um at the  university. I was like doing it in my  spare time and I taught myself in  design. Um in that time, I went on  graphic design courses. Um, I had chats  with people like in the graphic design  department like luckily about like  certain issues I was having very  sneakily uh to be.   

Z- Yeah.

C- Yeah. Like lent on some of my  co-workers a little bit um when I was  still working there like to kind of just  learn a little bit more.   Um and that's just the kind of thing  that you need to do. Um, and try and  find the fun and the passion in it where  you can. Um, because otherwise you find  yourself capped out at certain points of  like if you're really good at writing  adventure, then unless you're willing to  pay someone to lay it out and artwork  it, then really it's going to be like a  really good game. You can run at  conventions and you run it like at like  shows and like friendly local gaming  stores. But if you can't lay out into a  PDF that's deliverable drive through  RPG, you're not even able to sell it  digitally. Yeah,   because no one is going to pay money for  an ugly pain document or I mean like you  know when you know you can go on and get  a really good adventure laid out you  know it's like 15 pages for a fiber like  it's it's in terms of like kind of  knowing that market and knowing where  your weaknesses are and what outlay  you're willing to put out into the world  in order to make your thing come to  life. Whether that's learning it  yourself   or actually supporting another creative  by paying them to do it.   
Don't use AI and rely on that.  I'm gonna I'm gonna throw that out here  now.   

Z- Yeah. The creative people are here. We  we do charge money, but that's because  it's our job and we like to eat food and  keep a roof over our head.   

C- Yeah. And we'll get the number of  fingers right. It's like, come on.   

Z- I might not. So, I will forget to count.   

C- But yeah, in all in all serious, my you  our frustration with AI. It's  interesting just as a note um the for  people who don't know is that like a  role playing  fascinating is extremely anti AI on the  CR like fiercely.   Um so like we're working I can't say who  yet but working to go onto a virtual  tabletop platform that just would  interact with AI content in any way. If  anything discover you're using it,  they'll ban you. Like it is it's it's  yeah like there are spaces out there. 
There is hope. Like don't worry like  yeah it's um but but it is something to  challenge but I think it is also if you  are a creative who is hitting a certain  wall in your own process. I would  implore you  plan either learn the skill yourself and  upskill yourself and put the time into  developing yourself or you know save up  the money like you were saving up to buy  like a new games console or something  like that and invest in another creative  to help you bring that to life   and it will be a lot more satisfying  than going down the the dark art route   the dark arts that route that makes it  sound cool. Oh, no.   
Let's just call it is it's like the lazy  tech bro like I think I think that's the  issue is that there was an I was  watching interview with Gil Toro  recently. I think he summarized really  nicely when it comes to the creative  process. This comes into what also I  think I'd love people to know about  creative process especially with the  spectra of AI hanging over all of us. um  is that art has a human cost to it to  exist.   And I think the thing is is when you  look at the stuff that AI is making off  of the backs and the training of people  who have put that effort in, it's it's  very very sad. But I think like kind of  when you actually look at the stuff that  AI is making compared to what people are  making, you know, people who are paid  fair wage um to actually make and create  and put out into the world is do how  much How do you spend when you come  across this AI slop? Like you literally  just skip past it. When you actually  interact with real art, art made by  people with passion and kind of an  actual story to tell, you spend time  with it. I think Gilard Toro put it best  is kind of um good art, I'm going to be  paraphrasing him a bit here, is  basically like kind of good art or art  that has kind of meaning that's kind of  made with people um demands some element  of your presence. like kind of what  would you sacrifice to be there? Like  are you going to stand 10 hours in line  so you can go see the moment Lisa?   Um or you know go into the system chapel  um or or you know book early so you can  go see that film and support it in the  cinema like I did with Frankenstein. It's great great  film. I'm very obsessed with it at the  moment. Um, it's it's yeah, I think  we we we sacrifice our our time, our  money, our focus for art that means  something to us. Um, and the thing that  AI generated stuff currently is lacking  is that because ultimately it's  throwaway. It's very immaterial. It's  kind of there and it's exist for a  second and we scroll past it. Whilst  really we should be investing in artists  who will make stuff that will become  somebody's favorite game that they play  every week or their favorite movie that  they watch every year at a certain time  of year because it reminds them of  something they love. Like that's the  kind of thing that we should be putting  investment into rather than stuff that  actively destroys that pathway and that  kind of content for people to actually  enjoy the game. 

Z- Yeah,   I like that.   Last question. Is there a moment and  that doesn't have to be that changed?  Oh. So, so, so I I've already talked  about Barney and and kind of Christmas  and I think that that is that is a  moment.   Do you want when you make this that   Yeah. Yeah. That that was kind of like  the validity stamp of being like,   oh,   you're your  exactly like of just being like, no,  like this is actually something. This  isn't just a fun throw away creation  that you've made. that's only could be  joy for one a small group of people. Um  Barney's put it quite well of that one  of the best things about our jobs is  that ultimately we are merchants of joy.  We are merchants of of fun of people  have sitting down getting together  around the table in person.   

Z- Tell me you have a name tag. Charlie Menzies is merchant of fun.   

C- Yeah. But I think that that came we've  already kind of talked about it. I think  for me if it was kind of a more personal  moment that changed everything is that  once the dust had settled with the  initial release and shiver  um till we went to UK games expo we won  um the people's choice award for best  new RPG for the core rule book and it  was the first thing I ever made in the  sphere   and after that I kind of accepted that  that was real because that took a while  um imposter syndrome has privacy discuss   holding the award like I don't think  this is real   was was a a general review of kind of  what I actually wanted to achieve  creatively with my life   because I think the issues for I think I  probably alluded to it earlier of being  like you know I want to direct a film by  the time I'm 30 like I have very  specific goals of being like really  wanted to like kind of make a film and  and kind of get it out there and see it  on the cinema screen but then there was  also all these time elements of being it  needs to be by him like  all of this um and all of these kind of  very go basically a really big list that  was wavering and cheetah  list and then actually what it actually  took is rather than actually putting  that list is that what it need is the  whole tower just need to be kicked down   and shiver kind of did that it realized   it opened up a door in my brain of what  my creativity should be and what it  should be about because for me I always  thought I'm trained in film and TV. I  know how to make films. Like this is  what I should be doing. I want to direct  films. I want to start film. And and  then as you see how the towers grow like  really really quickly   which it really because I just kind of  did this as a bit of fun to kind of  express myself and do something  different and find an avenue to kind of  talk to people and tell stories and get  people engaged with something that I  love like kind of horror as a genre as  well as games. And it is the kind of  thing there was a bit of a lightning  bolt moment with it that the thing  that's important to me creating it  doesn't matter what the medium is. I  might move on from those in the future.  I may make things in other mediums and  it's the medium itself actually isn't  the thing that's important. The thing  that's important for me is that I'm  always telling stories and encouraging  other people to do so. And that's that  was the turning point.   

Z- You've got it. Yeah,   I think as long as the roots are good,  what you grow is good and that your  roots are in your storytelling and even  further down enjoy.   

C- Yeah.   

Z- Like whatever you grow from that,  whether it's games or films or whatever  comes in the future, it's going to be  good. Right.   

C- Exactly. It's I think it's really  important just not to get fixated on the  medium. I think that's and a lot of  people do it and I've taught film and  stuff for a while too and you kind of  saw it happening all the time. it needs  to be this this specific thing in this  very way. And it's kind of like when you  actually like draw it all kind of back.  Um it's kind of like why you have to ask  yourself the question of like why you  actually wanting to create what is the  drive like like what is the thing that  you're trying to do through creating?   Um and for a lot of us it's expressing  ourselves and communicating something.   Um and for me like kind of storytelling  is is something I feel very very  passionate about. So, so in terms of  like it's kind of you kind of almost  have to find that um my old  screenwriting tutor Simon Band like put  it really nicely like when you kind of  was talking about writing I think I  didn't really understand the context as  I do now at the time like with any  story that you're telling child any  screenplay that you're writing the whole  thing is you have to find this like what  is that nugget of gold within that story  like what is it you're trying to say   um with something And I think that's  what's important. It's it's kind of like  what you trying to say, what you trying  to do. Are you trying to tell a story?  Are you trying to inspire? Are you  trying to raise awareness? It's things  are way more broad brush when it comes  to creativity than just like um like I'm  an RPG designer. I only make games. I'm  a painter. I only do oil canvases. Yeah.   Like it's   that's not what it's about. And   that's not what people are coming to the  shop and looking through the shelves for  the next game of yours is. It's not what  they're looking for.   Exactly. But I think it's very in a  world that's so commercial, it's it's  something where where where we fall down  that hole as creatives really really  quickly. Our audiences hilariously don't  like but like in terms of viewing our  own stuff, they they don't see it that  way at all. And sometimes it's talking  like about going to conventions is that  sometimes meeting people who are fan of  Shiver who are playing games kind of  snaps you back to reality a bit for a  bit about like why you're doing the  thing that you're doing. I think that's  really important.   

Z- What a fantastic interview. Thank you so  much. Like my mics to work and then I'm  gonna harass Charlie and he will do my  interview in a sentence. Um, thank you.   

C- My pleasure.

Z- There's been some wonderful  nuggets in this interview. I cannot wait  to watch it back and yeah, I'm gonna  enjoy looking through all of it. Um, so  one more time,   Shiver, Parable, where can we find you?  I'm going to put it all in the the links  and stuff below here. Um, got all the  way through and enjoyed with us.   Thank you, Charlie.   

C- Thank you.   

Z- Nice. We're going to turn it off and  we're going to go harass the dog.   That was fab.   Thank

Whatchu doing sneaking about down here?

You mean you absolutely love editing huge sections of text and want to be employed by me one day to do this because it is killing my lil adhd brain? Please get in touch!

Recently I bought a big canvas - big for me anyway in my recent track record of acrylic paintings.
It loomed above the paintings I have up.
It's due for a picture I can't get out of my head, waiting.
Since I bought it -I've done 2 murals.
And the concept of 'canvas' has been challenged.
I've done set paintings and designs in the past so I am not a stranger to larger scale paintings.
But it had been a while since I had the chance to paint something physically bigger than me.
So I stood with Elaine and Curtis in front of the Berliner window and said - 'let's get this done before the punters get in'.

The canvas behind my easel feels a little smaller now.
​A little more doable.

This is my favourite part of the mural - it's a hot dog walking 2 hot dogs.
It's ridiculous and I am glad for the opportunity to create something so unserious.
I looked at the Berliner menu and thought '
'how can I anthropomorphise this?'.
And for someone who is a visual learner to the point she gives dance moves in choreo names to remember them - it was a lot of fun.

Thierry Noir's style can be spotted throughout the Berliner - those funky heads on the pillar - all Noir!
Considered the first artist to paint on the Berlin wall (that's him younger in the pic - and him with his work next to it).
I wanted to add some Noir style and popped some of those iconic faces as zombies popping out of the graveyard.
Even the little pumpkins alongside the path are a nod to his style.
You can even spot a figure looking very much like Mr Noir himself.

That's right - the snowmen are kebabs!
And those trees are pizzas.
Muahahha I shall not be stopped.
Even the rocks are cookies.
Cooper's cookies of course!

Thanks Curtis and Katie.
It was a pleasure.
​Long live Autumn /Winter mural!

If you are interested in a mural - I am happy to send you a free quote/estimate.
You can email me here:
Or drop me a message on FB/Instagram.

Thanks for reading!

Introducing this weeks creative,

Family Filmmaker and TV Editor.

Sophie Hurry, TV editor and filmmaker, chats about her creative journey, from working on I’m a Celebrity Allstars in South Africa to launching her own filmmaking projects. She shares how challenges—like managing mountains of footage or balancing creative expectations on low-budget shoots—shaped her approach to work.
Motherhood, she says, was a complete transformation. Becoming a parent expanded her capacity for love and creativity, describing it as a “maiden-to-mother arc.” It changed how she creates, thinks, and prioritizes her energy.
Sophie opens up about pushing through hard days: affirmations, mentorship, small resets, and learning to switch from “sprint mode” to “marathon mode.” She also explains the hidden effort in filmmaking—how even a few seconds of polished editing can take hours of care.
For anyone looking to work with her, Sophie’s on Instagram (@SophieHurryFilms), with her website and mailing list launching soon. Whether you’re a parent or just curious about creative processes, her insights reveal the patience, intuition, and heart behind the work.

Q1: Introduce yourself.
A: Sophie is a TV editor (mainly edit assisting and assembly editing) and filmmaker. She highlights her experience in both commercial TV and personal filmmaking, noting the unique pressures of working professionally.
Q2: What is your favorite project ever and why?
A:

• TV: Working on I’m a Celebrity Allstars in South Africa, pre-recorded post-COVID. She loved the location, wildlife experiences, and learning to manage unexpected challenges with large volumes of footage.
  
• Filmmaking: Model calls for her filmmaking business. The second model call was her favorite, as she knew what she wanted, learned patience during a three-month editing process, and was rewarded by a happy client.
  

Q3: What are specific challenges in your work?
A: Managing huge amounts of footage efficiently, high standards while editing, low-budget projects, and balancing creative expectations with limited capacity (e.g., during pregnancy). She describes herself as a “sprinter” adjusting to “marathon mode” for longer-term projects.
Q4: How do you push through hard days and know when to take a break?
A:

• Push through: Affirmations, motivation from her child, mentorship, caffeine or tea, and small resets during the day. Reframe doubt positively.
  
• Break signals: Task paralysis or physical signs like droopy eyes indicate burnout. Ignoring them can lead to overwork.
  

Q5: What do people often misunderstand about your work?
A: Editing takes far longer than it appears—small moments require intense care. People often underestimate the time, effort, and creative intuition involved.
Q6: What moment changed everything for you?
A: Becoming a mother. She describes it as the “maiden-to-mother arc” or “mother-maiden-crone” transformation. Motherhood expanded her capacity for love and creativity, drastically changing how she approaches life and work.
Q7: How can people hire or contact you?
A: Sophie is on Instagram (@SophieHurryFilms). Her website will launch soon, and her mailing list is active. She emphasizes patience and that building a professional presence is a marathon, especially while parenting.

If you are able to subscribe to me on YouTube - I would appreciate that so much.
​Thank you.

Z: Hello everybody. Today we've got Sophie, and we've also got Baby on speed dial just in case.
S: On speed dial.
Z: This is ready to pipe up when she, uh, yeah, we're going to get to a really poignant moment and tell me more about that, and she's like "MUM!" She probably heard that, to be fair. We can't laugh too loud just because it wakes her up. Um, welcome to the third one. Thanks for being here.
S: Of course.
Z: I forgot to send you them ahead of time. Or did I?
S: No.
Z: No. Are we just going to freeball it today?
S: Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's what I'm doing most of my days at the moment anyway. So, I'm glad to hear it.
Z: I mean, is there any change from the rest of your life?
S: No.
Z: Nice. So, introduce yourself first, 'cause I think that's probably the best way to start.
S: Okay. Hi, I'm Sophie. Uh, I'm a TV editor and a filmmaker.
Z: Beautiful. I think I love that. We'll do the drop-in underneath in the description bit—all the places you can find Sophie.
S: But, um, many, many places. Many places. Don't Google me. There's stuff from my past that, you know, like--
Z: You make it sound like you've killed somebody.
S: Yeah. There's just, you know, those days of the internet where you were just posting anything willy-nilly.
Z: I think they're sweet.
S: There's some sweet stuff. Yeah. Some of them's really sweet.
Z: What do we not know about?
S: I don't want to mention—this isn't weird, by the way—it's just like a certain clothing website that we used to post outfits.
Z: Oh, and you used to take photos of--
S: Yeah. And I cannot get rid of them for love nor money because I can't remember my login details and I contacted customer support like, "Please take these photos of me away."
Z: Is the one where you would put like a mood board with all the—possibly. Anyway, the properly posed and a little--
S: Yeah.
Z: It's just baby Sophie. It's just baby S. She's just doing her thing. It's just baby S. It's just that the digital footprint for our generation is vast. Wild.
Z: Well, we'll go straight into question one, which is: what is your favorite project ever and why? It's a biggie. What's your favorite?
S: I see why getting these in advance would have given my brain cells time.
Z: Would you have had the time to look at them?
S: True.
Z: Fair.
S: Absolutely not. Fair. Um, okay. So, I suppose I can answer in two different ways. Obviously, I've got two things going on in the sense that I've got my TV work, which—I say I'm a TV editor, but predominantly my career in TV has been edit assisting, assembly editing, like junior editing. I was working my way before I had Revy to being an editor. But that's what I say I am. And obviously the filmmaker side of it, although it's been a part of me since very, very young, I probably wouldn't— not that it's not all valid—but I wouldn't count it in a sense that as a practice I probably would only count the recent project with my business as like my filmmaking. It takes on a different weight when you're doing it for work.
Z: Yeah.
S: When you're doing it for money, it's real. You know, it's always real. But it just definitely takes on a different kind of pressure. Anyway, I'm not answering your question. It's fine. I feel like the whole thing's going to be like that, and I'm really okay with it. They've all been like this so far.
Z: 100%. And I'm here for it. So, favorite project and why.
S: Okay. So, I would say when it comes to TV, there are two that really jump out at me. One of them was when I was media managing, which is kind of wrangling all the cards on location. I did a lot of location work while I was traveling abroad. For one, I did "I'm a Celebrity Allstars." Normally it's live, which I don't do, but for some reason, post-COVID fallout, they did one in South Africa because they wanted it pre-recorded just in case. So, I ended up being on that. It was actually a really difficult job because they hadn't really done it pre-recorded before. There was a hell of a lot of footage they didn’t anticipate. We were told we were going to get a certain amount of stuff to deal with and we got a totally different amount—a lot more. So from a day-to-day perspective, it was a very demanding and difficult job. But the location was incredible. I was there for my birthday, went on a safari—well, they call it game drives in South Africa—and visited an elephant sanctuary, fed elephants, got close. It was a sanctuary. That opportunity of being somewhere so different with people so different was just amazing. I did a little jaunt with my friend afterwards to Cape Town. So, from a life experience point of view, less about the actual job—it was challenging—but what it afforded me was unlike anything else.
For my filmmaking, I've done a lot of model calls recently.
Z: What's a model call?
S: So a model call is when you basically offer your services for free in exchange for the rights to use what you create for advertising, promotion, etc. They're getting a free product, but I can use it. Especially when it comes to children and babies, some families might not feel comfortable with sharing the work. I need these model calls to show people what I can do.
Z: Yeah.
S: I'd say the second model call I did was my favorite. The first was beautiful, but I was nervous. By the second one, I knew more what I wanted and came away feeling really good. The edit was long, over three months, because Revy had a sleep regression, classic four-month-old stuff. Some days I just couldn’t create. Best thing was to rest. I’ve struggled with switching from sprint mode to marathon mode. I want everything done now, but now I’ve learned patience. That time actually helped me reflect, and fresh eyes are valuable. They were so chuffed with it when I gave it to them—they sent me flowers. Amazing family, all good vibes.
Z: I think you've answered question one and two and started to add in little bits of the others as well.
S: Checking baby monitor—she's in there, not crying, so we're good.
Z: Um, for South Africa, what was a specific challenge?
S: With media manager work, it’s not really creative. We were inundated with camera cards—SD cards full of footage. There were GoPros everywhere. We had to back up, ingest, sync, LTO archive—all before the cards could go back. They didn't anticipate that amount of stuff, yet expected the same turnaround.
Z: No wonder you say you're a sprinter, having to get used to marathon mode.
S: I was incredibly good at it. Being a sprinter made me efficient, got creative stuff done faster.
S: A very challenging project—I was pregnant, editing a development project. Shot loosely, low budget. The producer had high standards, wanted polished edits for the channel. I had limited mental capacity due to pregnancy. Very challenging, but rewarding. I walked away thinking, “I can edit a full show.”
Z: Question three: how do you push through on hard days? And question four: how do you know when it’s time to take a break?
S: Push through: affirmations help. My kid is motivation. Remind myself I’m doing this for her. My editor friend and mentor passed away—what would he do? Embodying him motivates me. Caffeine or tea helps too. Small reset points in the day are valuable. Pushing through doubt: replace thoughts like, “What if it fails?” with, “What if it goes right?” Anxiety is worrying twice.
Break signals: task paralysis—ADHD brain stacks everything at once. I freeze when it’s too much. Droopy eye tells me I’m reaching a drain point. If ignored, like during my dissertation, it leads to eye twitching—a sign of burnout.
Z: -Sophie brings in Reverie, her baby daughter-
S: Seven and a half months, and she almost dribbled in my mouth—a turning point for me.
Z: What do you wish people knew about the process?
S: The smallest things take the longest. A 3-second shot in editing can take hours. You feel what it needs, you can’t always see it. People don’t understand the time, value, or effort to get it right.
Z: Last question: what moment changed everything?
S: Her being born—obviously huge. Every mother or parent would say that. From a creative standpoint, it was like going through a portal. The maiden-to-mother arc. You go through this portal and it's like the maiden to mother arc, isn't it? And you literally do transform and change--
Z: This is the tryptic thing. The mother maiden crone. I'm not even kidding. – talking about a ring –
S: So many synchronicities. Look at it. Yeah. So, from a creative standpoint, I forever changed, but I also think, um, because that's the obvious one and I, I, I know me and I'm trying to find—I'm trying to get you a juicy kind of like, you know, hidden uncovered one that's less.
Z: Sometimes there isn't. It's fine.
S: It's true. Sometimes there isn't.
Z: There's not been like I even wrote in the original question that it doesn't have to be anything big. Like that's pretty big.
S: Well, that's the thing and almost—it's a classic me thing. It's like I don't like to go for the big obvious stuff. I like to go for the nuance and I like to go to the more specific things that people might not know, you know? All right. I like to uncover. I like to uncover and have my hair pulled, obviously.
Z: Um, she wants the long hair. She's wearing it like a wig.
S: She is wearing like a wig. You'll get your own hair soon. I think I don't think I can think of one. I think it has to be that the moment she was born, I changed as a person. I felt like I was walking around with my heart working at like 5%. And you don't realize, you think that's your 100%. You think, I've got all the love I can give. I've got all the creative energy I can give, you know, and then you create a human who loves you unconditionally and suddenly you've got 95% and it's amazing and it's incredible. So yes, I've never been—I've never felt so creative. I've never had so much creative energy. Um, and how I create has changed as well.
Z: Yeah, exactly. So, I think we'll have a soft end, which is just if people want to hire you for family film, where can they go? And if they want to work with you in terms of editing, how can they contact you?
S: So, I'm on Instagram, SophieHurryFilms, and I'm hoping that in the next few weeks, like the end of September, my website will be ready. So, I say to people, go to my website, which feels a bit fraudulent right now because my website's not ready.
Z: No, because your mailing list is on there.
S: And that's—my mailing list is on there. It's so true. Yes. So, I haven't… Yeah, we're waiting. Yeah. Sign up to my mailing list on there. Um, but like marathon, not a sprint. I had all these expectations that when I would start opening my books that my website would be ready, everything be shiny, complete, perfect. That's not how life works. It's definitely not how things work with a baby. So yeah, my website and my Instagram and my email, which is [email protected]—just the one hello, which, not too hurts. Don't worry, I just wanted to add some little bit of jazz to it, didn't I? Yeah. A little bit accent. Yeah.
Z: I think it's the end.
S: I think it's the end. I think too. Yeah.
Z: Thank you, Sophie. I think it's the end. Thank you. Thank you, Revvie. You've been wonderful.
S: You've been catching a vibe.
Z: She's been catching a vibe. You've been catching a vibe. I will put all of the stuff underneath and go check out her stuff. Go sign up. And you might not have a baby, but somebody you know might be having one and those—that time we were talking to Chris and he was like, time is going very fast, so anything that we've got to kind of encapsulate that.

Inktober is an annual month-long online art challenge created by artist Jake Parker in 2009,
​where participants draw an ink illustration each day in October. 

So, today we celebrate the wonderful
​

Social links:

Chloe at work on the 'Twilight' mural.

Zoe Davey  0:00  
Hi, welcome to the first video of this type on this channel. It is linked to a blog. And if you've been following my creative journey recently, you'll know that I've been making a blog every single Friday, and recently, I reached out to my mailing list because I knew there's some wonderful creative people on there that I wanted to hear from, and figure that other people might want to hear from too. And and someone replied, It was Chloe, and I was so pleased, and I'll always be so pleased and thankful for her being the first interviewee. Enjoy the interview. It's long. We go off on tangents, but I love to listen to that kind of stuff where creatives talk to other creatives. They go off on tangents, and they don't apologize for it. I've done the best I can with the audio. It will get better in time, but for now, is what it is. It's scrappy. I've done the best I can with it. I've really enjoyed this interview. We talk about what you tell her younger self about what she's doing now, we talk about what her favourite projects were, and why they were her favourite projects, and how she pushes through on the really difficult times. It's heart-warming, it's wonderful, and I hope you really enjoy it. And now there's just one more message from me before we carry on. So it turns out, if you screen record a phone call, it doesn't necessarily record the audio. So this is the video of me apologizing for not being in the corner of the screen because I turned my camera off by accident and the audio doesn't work. So we live and we learn. That's what I'm going to say.

We'll get better from our mistakes.

Chloe C  1:32  
Lady, right. We are going to make an attempt at an introduction. Okay, this is the first one of these, my honoured guest, Chloe Chicarelli, here she is all the way from America. Thank you for being the first one. Thank you for being

Always down to be your test guinea pig, whatever you need. I love this. This is so awesome, amazing.

Zoe Davey  2:01  
Um, we've basically got how many questions are we doing today? We are doing eight whole questions. But the amount of me and you like to talk this is going to be, like, six hours long. So buckle in, everyone.

Chloe C  2:14  
Shut me up if I start yapping.

Zoe Davey  2:19  
No that's the point. Is, if I'm yapping too much. I need to be reined in, because I'm the one that's supposed to ask the questions and then shut up.

Chloe C  2:26  
That's fine. I am definitely more of the listener in a relationship than us than the talker. So...

Zoe Davey  2:32  
Well, it's your turn to have the spotlight put on you. I don't know how you feel about that. Try well, for anybody who doesn't know Chloe, she is a mural artist and general creative person, I will link her stuff on her website, because it looks amazing. My favorite piece, I think that you've done, I've written it down here so I didn't forget was the Downtown Box. Like it's a huge side of the building with the birds in it, and they're like the Heron, yep. It's amazing. That's really nice colors. And that's the picture that I'm going to put in there. 

Chloe C  3:10  
A little segue into question one. Then, fantastic.

Zoe Davey  3:15  
I didn't even plan that. That's perfect. Let's what is question one. Question one is, what's your favourite project you've ever worked on? And why? 

Chloe C  3:23  
Oh, my goodness, crazy. Yeah. So Twilight, that one was called, and it's actually the biggest project that I've done to date. And funnily enough, it was only my second ever mural. So I used to work a nonprofit in downtown Dayton, and I just completed the first one. They just kind of said, Hey, did anybody want to do this mural? Nobody really wanted to paint it. The design had made. So it was already like, ready to go. And I was like, I'll do it.

Zoe Davey  3:59  
That's the dream, there, right? 

Chloe C  4:01  
Like, you're pretty good at this. I'm like, thank you. Like, any other opportunities that you've got, like, thrown my way, I'd absolutely love that. Definitely no money. This was, this was before. This was definitely getting my experience. Yeah. So yeah, the owner just approached me one day, and she was like, Hey, we're going to be doing a really big project. Would you like to be the lead muralist? And like, no hesitation. I was just like, let's go. And then she kind of proceeded to, you know, go. Just explain a little bit more about what that would all entail. It was actually a program with the Montgomery County Juvenile court system. So they it's juvie kids, you know, just under 18, kids who have, you know, maybe kind of done something they shouldn't have. They're in bad situations. It was one of them. Most like humbling things I've ever done. So they have a project called the halo project, which is helping adolescents achieve long term objectives. So it just gave these kids, you know, something to do that kept them out of trouble. A lot of them were, like, really, really good artists, and they just, you know, I'm so happy that they finally had something where they could be themselves. It was a little bit scary. I'm not gonna lie, I had a couple of like, 18, 17 year olds who were like, I'm a run. I'm a run every day. And I'm like, please don't run. I've got so much of the stuff that I have to do with this, but it was such an eye opener. I was the lead muralist on that one, so I kind of really got to understand, like, the inner workings of it all, you know, like, I didn't get too much into the budget side of things, but just kind of like all the working parts and everything that it takes to make something like that go and I just, I loved it. I loved being able to orchestrate stuff, you know, getting out there doing actual work. The design was actually done by a local, famous artist called gay Hilton. So I was just like, super stoked to be doing her work, getting it all done. It was, it was really good. It really could, really cool, really good, really cool. 

Zoe Davey  6:34  
You can see it on your website, and that that side of the building is absolutely massive as well. I think you've got, like, a panel over there and before and after.
I didn't know that they had been painting it with you as well. That's amazing. Like, I mean, to throw you in at the deep end, like, obviously you said yes, not only that, you you're also in charge of these people, making sure that they like, on task, doing their thing. And you nailed it anyway. No wonder it's your favourite.

Chloe C  6:53  
It was definitely stressful. It was literal blood, sweat and tears shed mostly, I was hoping, like heavy equipment and stuff. Yeah, it was a it was one of the most cool learning experiences, as stressful as it was, and lots of egos and personalities and stuff, it was none of that mattered. Like, the moment I had done that, every all the kids were only helping on, like, kind of, like, the block colours and stuff, I just remember there was a little bit of lettering in the bottom left corner, and that was, like, the last thing I was doing. And like, it's so crazy. Like, you start something that's so daunting, and then, like, you have that final brush stroke, and then you're like, Oh, I'm doing it so weird, all of that, all of that stress, and I finally just finished, and you're like, oh, oh, it's happened. I did it.

Zoe Davey  7:57  
It was so good. So, yeah, no, that's an amazing answer. Thank you so much. If this doesn't record, because this is our first time doing this. If this doesn't record, I'll just cry, because that was a wonderful answer, and people need to hear that, because I think it's it's really inspiring to hear the joy that comes out of doing things that aren't necessarily always broadcasted as like, job type. Isn't easy.

Chloe C  8:26  
I mean, there's a couple of things, ;)  but...

-dog barks - sorry, just making sure the dog was fed.

Zoe Davey  8:36  
Important things in life.

Chloe C  8:38  
...is that, yeah, no, I just You just gotta keep going. Just gotta keep pushing. It's really cool, even when things are hard, like, I guess this,

Zoe Davey  8:52  
Maybe then after we piggyback and we go on to Question three, because that would be a perfect segue. It's, How do you push through on a hard day? Okay? And then we can go back, unless you want to do question two?

Chloe C  9:05  
What is Question three?

Zoe Davey  9:10  
Question three is, how do you push through on a hard day when the going gets tough? What? What are your ways of pushing through?

Chloe C  9:18  
Um, so David actually has this quote that he says all the time, and it's really and I want to say this right? I'm going to try and say it, and then I'm going to make sure it's right. What is it? Leave nothing for tomorrow, which leave nothing for tomorrow, which can be done today. Abraham Lincoln, oh, we like that. And I really hold it like quite close to my heart, honestly, as I continue to, like do this and start to, you know, get deeper into this, I'm a solo artist. I. Uh, the work comes out of my hands. Like, yes, there's times where I have assistance and they can do, you know, block colouring and stuff like that. But whatever I don't do today, if I want to be lazy today, I'm going to pay for that tomorrow. Yeah, I and it can really start to become a knock on effect, and that really affects me with burnout. So, yeah, I I am. It's kind of funny, like, I do feel like quite a lazy girl at heart, and it is hard to kind of push through sometimes when all you want to do is just go home and just, like, watch something on Netflix. But I just, I just know that if I don't do it today, it's tomorrow's problem, and then that will be the next day's problem. And it kind of like weirdly pushes me to keep going. It just makes me do that extra, you know, that extra 20 minutes that tomorrow, you know, and 20 minutes every single day you've lost another hour. And then, you know, that's that Friday feeling when I want to actually go home. I've kind of been through that. So I guess it's all about just trying to find the balance, listening, obviously, to your body. And I guess this does actually kind of go into like question four as well. Yes, yes, like that. I'm getting older. My body is not getting younger. I'm trying to get fitter right now. I'm trying to be better about listening to my body, but it really has been a game changer, especially for women. Following your cycle, I think is one of the most important things that you can do, because me, in my luteal phase, all I want to do is scream and cry. I don't want to be understanding to be I don't want to be dealing with bugs. I don't want to, you know, think no matter what industry you're in, I definitely think women should do that, because we are absolutely beating ourselves raw trying to keep up with men who have cortisol levels that get reset every 24 hours. We're just different creatures. And I just, I wish that every woman would give themselves the grace that I'm a bit of a hypocrite. I don't always do this. I sometimes have headlines, you know, I sometimes have to push a little bit harder. But if I could preach from the mountain tops, listen to your body. Listen to when you need rest, listen to what hurts and what you can do. You know it's like, oh yes, self care. It's just some face masks that's put some conditioning treatment on our hair. It's so much deeper than that. It's listening then checking in with yourself. Every single day, I find myself often, and more often than not, like, in a bad mood and trying to figure out the the core of that is it my body saying, oh, I need, I need to rest. Oh, my body's like, irritated, like, everything that you need is within you. I feel like, and maybe I sound like a crazy, crazy lady at this point, but like

Zoe Davey  13:01  
I'll join you!

Chloe C  13:03  
Your body knows what it needs. And I am really trying to, like, yesterday, it we had tornado warnings yesterday, and it was crazy. And I just said, okay, my body needs to rest. And I even joke about it. It's my forced relaxation. I sit there, and I will make myself just sit there, and it's like, I just wait for my body to, like, soak in and just appreciate it. I also think there's a lot of like, good with like, meditation and all that kind of stuff as well. But that's a whole 'nother. That's a whole 'nother conversation. I like it, though. Just take care of is that so obviously, yourself, learn how to listen to your body and then actually listen to your body, and then actually do the things that your body kind of needs you to do before everybody else who's up at 5am and doing this and drinking this and doing everything that's so good like Do what makes you happy? Sometimes I'm barely surviving, so

Zoe Davey  14:04  
We're just doing our best.

Perfect. Well, what was, Oh, we're going back to two then what were the biggest challenges you faced on that project? So we kind of covered them going back to the first mural project. But what was the biggest challenge for you? Do you think 

Chloe C  14:24  
Bugs.

Zoe Davey  14:28  
 Bugs?!

Chloe C  14:30  
So many bugs. There's so many spiders, outdoors, outdoors, flying creatures and like, I don't really care for them, but it was just constantly. No, that was that was definitely not ideal, obviously painted in summer, when the lights come on at night, it's 

Zoe Davey  14:58  
Oh,my God. I. Had not even considered that that's wild. I did paint outside for pretty much the first time with acrylics the other day, and there were a few, but I imagine over there, it is a little bit Wilder.

Chloe C  15:13  
I was led over to America. Was not informed about them - horrendous.

Zoe Davey  15:18  
God damn it, David, you didn't inform her?

Amazing. What made you say yes to the first mural or creative or creative opportunity that you did? What made you say yeah?

Chloe C  15:33  
Can I swear?

Zoe Davey  15:34  
Yeah.

Chloe C  15:34  
 Why the fuck not? Yeah?

Zoe Davey  15:38  
 I agree.

Chloe C  15:39  
 I just, I'm, at that point in life, like I'm a take opportunities. I, you know, we get presented with these weird and wild things every day, and some of them can feel scary. Some of them, one right now, yeah, like this is literally to be on podcasts and stuff. And I'm just like, I am not. 

Zoe Davey  16:03  
Well, you clearly are. You're doing some great answers.

Chloe C  16:08  
And if I can do something that benefits other people as well, but women like, it's kind of funny around here late. I mean, there's, there's a lot of artists who have a lot of egos, and that's like a global thing, but just trying to find people who have, like, similar mindsets, and just, we all got to eat. We all want to eat. Why can't we all eat? You know, it's like, I really want to support everybody, and it doesn't have to be like, this petty thing and like so just fucking vibe, and we all have different skill sets. Let's come together. 

Zoe Davey  16:44  
-sings- Yes, collaborate and listen.

Chloe C  16:49  
Yes. Why not? 

Zoe Davey  16:54  
Indeed. 

Number six, we're firing through these. I'm going to check what time we're on. What time are we on? It doesn't tell you we're in the zone. Excellent. What? Where's my I can't read number six. What do you-This is my favorite little question that came up with- what do you think little you as in, like you as I don't know, maybe like 6, 7, 8, would say about the work you do now?

Chloe C  17:22  
You know, I got a little bit like, when I read your questions, I like, a little bit teared. I thought that one, oh, I think she'd just be really happy that she's doing something that's just me. You know, I just feel like we all again, we take these opportunities in life. And I got to a point, you know, had my fancy corporate job, everything was good, but I just wasn't happy. I just wasn't where I thought I wanted to be in life, and I didn't know where I wanted to be. I spent my life just thinking I'd be kind of a bit of just a floater. I've never really had like a secure friendship group. I've got my family and stuff, but I've just always been a bit of a lone wolf, so I knew that whatever I did do, I needed that to kind of fill that little bit that I always felt safe, and I've always felt safe when I'm on my own, because I only have to worry about myself, and that's clearly some therapist talk. 

Zoe Davey  18:25  
I'll make a note of that one down for you.

Chloe C  18:31  
I think she'd be really proud. I didn't, I didn't even know I would live this long. Yeah, think I'd make it, and I keep seeing milestones, and it's it's really cool, and I keep pushing, and I keep making cool stuff, and I keep doing cool stuff, so better not stop now.

Zoe Davey  18:53  
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for being really honest with that answer. You could have just said anything, and you gave me your heart.

Chloe C  19:00  
And that was because you said it my whole body -visibly wiping tears-

Zoe Davey  19:05  
Well, that's how you know it's true. That's how you know it's the good stuff. Yeah. So what do you wish more people knew about the process behind your work?

Chloe C  19:19  
Everything?

Just just the care, attention, love, devotion, that I will put into what I do, like I don't. There's not many things unless, like, you're a real prick to me. I'm going to give you my everything. Like you really have to, like, be an asshole to me, for me to, like, start not giving you my fault. Yeah. Wait, what was the question again, my brain just...

Zoe Davey  19:50  
 I think the question was, what do you wish people knew? Yeah, what do you wish more about the process behind it?

Chloe C  19:56  
Yeah, just the work that goes in behind. Scenes, the admin, the putting in every single receipt that I've ever spent on any kind of pain, figuring out how to be a business owner, because this is my first year full time. I still don't really know what I'm doing, but I'm figuring it out every day, and...

Zoe Davey  20:21  
...clearly something's working.

Chloe C  20:24  
I just wish people would give me the support and appreciate artists and the time and effort that does go in, because I will forever wear mug across my forehead. If I could do everything for free, I would, yeah.

Zoe Davey  20:38  
But we can't. We can't eat that way.

Chloe C  20:42  
I could do this, like, just as a philanthropy thing, that would be awesome. Maybe one day, that is where, maybe one day, because I hate talking about money, but we gotta eat.

Zoe Davey  20:53  
We have to eat, we have to pay for houses. We have to put clothes on our bags because we get arrested otherwise, you know? 

Chloe C  21:00  
Yeah, I guess that's the thing. A lot of people come to me and go, Well, I could do that. And I'm like, Well, go on. And then, well, you know, the cost of this, the cost of that, the cost of that, they can't seem to think of all the things like I, I was painting a mural, what, three days ago, and a guy came over. He was a general contractor, and I had four brushes laying on the floor. He was like, why have you got $200 just spilled out on the floor like that? And I went, Oh, you actually understand the value of things. 

Zoe Davey  21:36  
That's really cool, my friend, I saw something in my friend's story the other day that was like someone had asked, like, oh, you're a photographer. Do you just do that for fun or whatever? And then it was like, No, I just go to places with 300 300 Wait, 3000 pounds worth of equipment just hanging off me and try and make friends with toddlers for fun. No, of course, it's my job. But yeah, it's like when someone realizes how either how much time something takes, how much something costs, or how much effort and understanding and trial and error, how many times you failed before you got to that point when they recognize that, oh, that's a good day. That's a nice day. That's almost better than a pat on the back. It's a I see, I see what's going on here.

Chloe C  22:26  
I do. I mean, like, when I do my abstract stuff, a lot of people, that's where you really start to get the oh, well, I could do that. 

Zoe Davey  22:33  
Like, what the pain pouring thing, it looks amazing?!

Chloe C  22:36  
Just abstract work in general. Like, yeah, sometimes stuff only does take me two hours, and, yeah, charge you $1,000 for it, because that's how many times before, years and years and years learning all these different things to get me to that point. And it's just like anything. I just wished artists were kind of treated like general contractors. That's kind of where I feel in the same vein, yeah, yeah. 

Zoe Davey  23:05  
Never questioned a plumber. Never questioned a plumber in my life.

Chloe C  23:09  
Weird, isn't it? I can't believe we've made

Zoe Davey  23:12  
It has come to the last question, but we have, is there a moment in your creative journey that changed everything for you. 

Chloe C  23:23  
I was thinking about really, like trying to think of like something profound,

Zoe Davey  23:32  
It's okay, if there's nothing.

Chloe C  23:35  
I think it's kind of been like a slow burn more than anything. Yeah, I feel like every single little thing that I've done, I mean, I will say that working at the nonprofit, opened up a lot of doors, met a couple of people. I mean, yeah, just definitely, just through the years, just kind of, you know, building it up, building it, building it up. And like, now I'm at a point where, like, I'll go on Facebook every day and somebody's tagged me about a project, and like, I feel like just getting that reputation. And, yeah, you know, it's, I could lose that reputation in one day. I could do something, say something like, you know, cancel culture, like, and as a 90s baby, it can, it can be hard sometimes to find, like, where the wokeness is, and like what I can and can't say. I feel like, since moving to America, I was kind of given a, like, a bit of a second chance. I got to become the person that I know I am without all the past and everybody else's opinions and all that kind of stuff, you know, and it made me realize that I am a good person, and I want to do good in the world. And since that really it's just motivated me to want to do more. And I think within. Motivation comes that, you know, just it tumble. It's a big Tumbleweed of feelings and emotions to it.

Zoe Davey  25:11  
Doesn't have to be a movie moment right?

Chloe C  25:13  
 Sometimes, on and on and on, little meet cute, where everything just kind of went. You're a magical artist. 

Zoe Davey  25:21  
It's now, like, congratulations, but like, it's today, you're a magical artist. 

Chloe C  25:26  
Now, I feel like I've worked really hard over the like, I mean, I went to art school, I did all that good. 

Zoe Davey  25:36  
You did.

Chloe C  25:38  
Everything has just come out to this point where it was supposed to be. And again, I'm floating in a random country, in a random town, and my name's on buildings, and it's just, it's bizarre, but amazing. So yeah, definitely no magic firework moment, just a nice little slow Ember that's growing, and I hope it just keeps growing, because we should I want this to go to glow, glow forever with a because you're glowing right now, because this is so bright, the sun's just come out for the first time.

Zoe Davey  26:15  
Oh my gosh. Um, thank you. Thank you. That's not going to cover it. It's not going to cover it. It's it because, like, you need the people in your life who take a chance, and you take a chance of me all the time, so and now you're doing this for me. A special wish that this recorded properly. Wish with me. Ready? Please, please, please. -Chloe wishes, fingers crossed, on camera-. And then I had the little thing pop up that was like, You need to upgrade if you want to do 10 more minutes worth of speaking. I was like, I think the takeaways from this will be so lovely, because you've been so honest and so just full of joy about it all. And I think that shines through at the end of the day, even though things get really rough and like life is trying. Like, the thing that keeps shining through is that you love doing this stuff, and you love making beautiful things for people. And like, if you can keep doing that, then you're gonna pretty happy be

Chloe C  27:17  
I wanna, I want people to smile. Like, I mean, somebody almost crashed the car yesterday, and a policeman went like the wrong way yesterday, just because they're looking at my work and I that's one thing of a town where I don't think people understand general laws, but that's okay.

Zoe Davey  27:39  
I mean, that's a high compliment

Chloe C  27:41  
Oh God, Ohio now.

Zoe Davey  27:44  
So I think we'll carry on. Go, go.

Chloe C  27:50  
You inspire me again. The fact that you you have shown that you know, just because it doesn't always go the way you want it to the first time. Like tenacity, Zoe is it's all inspiring. It really we're doing this. Like, I just, we all have like things that we can, like, look up to, and like, just, I don't know, I love your style. I love how you can just bash it out and not overthink stuff, like everything that like, I wished I could do, like you just do it. You don't worry. You just do how do

Zoe Davey  28:28  
Oh how do you a how do you know I don't worry? You interview me one day. I'll tell you!

Chloe C  28:34  
You finished a painting. Zoe, 

Zoe Davey  28:37  
Oh, that is true.

Chloe C  28:38  
 I have ones, but I can finish them.

Zoe Davey  28:41  
But I'll get on you after we finish this, this interview, in a second, I'll harass you about finishing some art. How about that?

Chloe C  28:47  
Yeah, I mean, I'm getting my studio space set up right now, so I'm kind of, I can't wait to see that journey and where that all goes and my canvases have gone so like that's happening in the next you fully, fully talked, amazing, right? 

Zoe Davey  29:04  
Where can people find you if they don't know who you are or they don't already follow you? 

Chloe C  29:08  
They can find me on Facebook, on Instagram and Chloe Chicarelli Instagram at, just at, it's just because I sometimes put stuff on Tiktok. I am not the biggest social media girl.

Zoe Davey  29:25  
Want to we'll get there. You're a great example of someone who is bossing it without having to completely follow the norm. So that's okay. If there's people out there who are like, I don't know it, you're in that boat too, and you're still smashing it. 

Chloe C  29:41  
So okay, as the ex social media manager, I don't want to, I don't want to be there. And if you mural, I am International, you can go on my website, submit request, www.chloechicarelli.com,

Zoe Davey  29:57  
Oh my gosh. I want to see where this leads. I'm very curious. Trying to edit like that. All right, we're gonna end it now. Thank you for listening to everyone. Bye.

Before we start - I'll let you know I'm not about to start laying into commissions I've done in the past for anyone else.
There have been some I have not been happy with - especially in the early days.
I did not have as much experience and I was trying my best - so I'm letting bygones be bygones.
I learnt a lot from those about managing expectations, not rushing and that it would have been totally ok to start again!
I don't think there is much kindness in making fun of past work when it's the best you could do at the time. You never know who is reading or watching and comparing. These 5 are all from my Inktober challenges - where you do a piece a day to a prompt. I didn't have the time to fix them or always properly plan which had some... interesting results!

These are my 5 worst 'posts' on Instagram that I still to this day - cringe a little to look at.
Ok - that is dramatic.

I'll be offering positives, constructive criticism and suggestions for improvement.

The Positives
- Nice use of colour
- Concept is pretty cool!
- I now have Thunderstruck by ACDC in my head and you do too.

Constructive Criticism
- Needs more depth with light and shadow
- More attention to detail on body proportions

​Suggestions
- Redraw with a larger torso and hands in proportion
- Add more shadow and light to the clouds
- Perhaps as an acrylic this would reach the level of drama needed of a Greek God!

The Positives
- Cool screenshot reference to use, I remember going digging through episodes
- I like the texture detail on his hair
- At first glance it's pretty cool

Constructive Criticism
- It's missing structure in Lucas's face making him a bit too 2D
- That hand is wayyy too small on the left

​Suggestions
- Draw it bigger to get that detail! I remember them all being in an A4 sketchbook 
- Fix those hands with size reference
- Do some warm up practice on Lucas's facial structure

The Positives
- Nice colour scheme - very Mad Max
- I like the effort on the arm structure
- Textures on the body are pretty cool

Constructive Criticism
- Even at this point I know I rushed that hand. 
- Unclear structure to Furiosa's outfit
- Face needs more study

​Suggestions
- I think this was A5 so - you guessed it - draw it bigger!
- Sketch out a shape plan for the top and harness
​- Use a ruler for the gun to make it pop!

The Positives
- Good shadows and lights 
- I like the hair on the edges
- I like the eyes too - when I look at them as a section they look pretty well proportioned

Constructive Criticism
- I know for a fact that the reference photo I used that man had a different lower facial structure
- Hands - alas

​Suggestions
- Do some practice sketches to loosen up and explore his face shape beneath the hair
- The hand needs more definition from the face with shadows 
- Draw out a map for the whole sketch first

The Positives
- It's obviously the Hulk!
- I like the texture on the trousers
- Right hand is actually pretty good!

Constructive Criticism
- Not enough shadow and light
- Face falls flat
- Surface beneath needs to be straighter to give him a grounding

​Suggestions
- Zoom in - pick a more dynamic pose
- Use a ruler for the base
- I think this is one for colour - taking away his green is weird!

Finding time and space for creativity again.

I mentioned it in the 'Bury a Friend' behind the scenes video - but making 'photoshoots' is something I've been doing since I was a kid. That - and making YouTube parodies in the summer holidays with friends. The most cherished memories. Just the kids who took a DSLR and random clothes in a bag to a field to simply make stuff.

Doing the same thing recently when I felt the need to change up my reference person (from myself) - it felt like stepping back in time - galivanting around with a bag of outfits and at one point
​- a large fake sword...

​ I've added some examples of baby Zoe and gang below.

I went through many stages with how I felt about this hobby.
I think we all go through those phases that we cringe at as we get older.
But I think I've somehow managed to come full circle!
Because, at the end of the day - it's harmless fun and childlike creativity. Not putting too many structures in place and going - hey - let's make something.

We seemingly had all this 'free time' as kids.
Our brains weren't as full thinking about bills for one!
I think time was more relative, slower even. We got this 6 week block of time we knew was coming each year smack bang in the middle of summer.
I've found the best thing is sticking the photoshoot in my diary and keeping to it. Once my brain recognises 'oh, we're taking this seriously? It's actually in the diary?' - it gets done.
Something else more important will always take over otherwise.
It's not always something more fun either.
But if I know I've scheduled in creative time then I somehow find time to do the hoovering.
They are both 'important'.

I did it!
I finally made another YouTube video.
I just wanted to capture the day a bit more and thought people might be interested in the process a bit more.
So here's some mind ramblings in video form of how I build concept into shoot.

They will be performing at May Hall (Trent College) Long Eaton from the 8th - 12th April.

​Tickets here: