Introducing this weeks creative,

Tabletop RPG Creator

Self confessed nerd and passionate creative Charlie talks about realising his childhood dream to write a book and how that spiralled into the well-loved RPG series; Shiver. In this episode he talks openly about the war between AI and creatives alongside the truth of creativity, the intricate programmatic language of role-playing games and the roots of storytelling and joy in his work.

(talking about playing Shiver with his brother and now business partner, Barney)
“…and he  read through it and he kind of sat there and I remember he post  looked up at me and he said, "When do  you want to make it?" And and I was like  I was like, "What do you mean?"
And and  so I didn't say yes initially, but he  kind of he was like, "Well, it's like  you've designed it. You're playing with  your friends and it's ultimately to be  frank. It's some I sell RPGs in my shop and it's something I've not seen before and I think it is a gap that you've  filled because you filled it by making  something that you want to play and you  love.   
So this seems like it could be really fun.”

Zoe - "what do you think little Charlie  would say about what you've created and  the job you do now?
What do you think?"

Charlie - I think he'd be be amazed. I I think  he'd be very happy... make a book - that would be cool and like  that was always a bit of a dream... now it's kind of circled back around  to it and I'm happy again... I think they'd be surprised  at what the books are.   I think I think that's that that's  that's the interesting bit.
They'd be  like, "Oh, I guess he writes story  books." Not not exactly like... Yeah. It's like a book that allows people to  tell their own stories through rolling  dice. And they'd be like,
"Oh, he's a  real big nerd, isn't he? Oh, no."

Z- I bet the first time you held one of  these in your hand was insane.  

C- When it's being published I teared up... I  always had a dream of being like one day  I'll have a book published like a hardcover book. It'll be mine. … t was very  emotional when they arrived.  And then I think there was another layer  of that where there's one thing where  you've like printed something and made  and you you're holding the finished item   and that feels really really good. 

(Talking about the work behind publishing an RPG)
If you're wanting to get to  published book territory or even like  published adventure territory or like  working for an RPG company, I think the  thing I'd like people to know most is  that they need to be prepared to wear  multiple hats and not be afraid of stepping into areas that they don't know that they're  uncomfortable in and try something  that's a bit different.

Especially if you're working solo  or in a small team, like sometimes you  just have to like suck out and just do  it and try it. I mean, I was working on  uh the first book and then the Gothic  books when I was still working um at the  university. I was like doing it in my  spare time and I taught myself In Design. Um in that time, I went on  graphic design courses. Um, I had chats  with people like in the graphic design  department like luckily about like  certain issues I was having to be very  sneaky. 

(Thoughts on AI)
C- Don't use AI and rely on that.  I'm gonna I'm gonna throw that out here  now.   

Z- Yeah. The creative people are here. We  we do charge money, but that's because  it's our job and we like to eat food and  keep a roof over our head.   

C- Yeah. And we'll get the number of  fingers right. It's like, come on.   

Z- I might not. So, I will forget to count.   

C- But yeah, in all in all serious, my frustration with AI. It's  interesting just as a note, um, the for people who don't know is that like role playing,  fascinatingly, is extremely anti AI 

AI generated stuff currently is lacking  is that because ultimately it's  throwaway. It's very immaterial. It's  kind of there and it's exist for a  second and we scroll past it. Whilst  really we should be investing in artists  who will make stuff that will become  somebody's favorite game that they play  every week or their favorite movie that  they watch every year at a certain time  of year because it reminds them of  something they love. Like that's the  kind of thing that we should be putting  investment into rather than stuff that  actively destroys that pathway and that  kind of content for people to actually  enjoy the game.

(On his job)
...the best things about our jobs is  that ultimately we are merchants of joy.  We are merchants of of fun of people  have sitting down getting together  around the table in person. 

The thing  that's important for me is that I'm  always telling stories and encouraging  other people to do so. And that's that  was the turning point.


Z- What's the biggest  challenge you faced in that project? So when you were creating Shiver?

C- Basically  having to  tussle with serious imposter syndrome  because I kind of had a very sudden  sharp route into the industry and was  suddenly like there doing shows and like  the book was published, it was out and  like being sold and I was like, "Oh."  And then It was all just quite a lot.  And I had that kind of feeling because  it's when something like that happens so  fast.  

(Talking about running a Shiver session as GM)
...you're encouraged not  to split up because of the way the balancing works (in DND). It's a horror movie.
(Shiver) I want you to die! Um, no, don't don't  tell the group I said that...

​Play amazing narrative-led horror stories with this award winning
easy-to-learn TTRPG. Whether you want a Slasher, a Horror-Comedy, or a
exciting action-adventure - let SHIVER power your tabletop tales.

If you are able to subscribe to me on YouTube - I would appreciate that so much.
​Thank you.

The Long YouTube Transcript :

C - I think they'd be surprised at what the  books are.   
I I think that's that that's that's the  interesting bit.
They'd be like, "Oh, I  guess she write a story book." It's  like, not exactly like-
Yeah. It's not  like a book that allows people to tell  their own stories through rolling dice  and they be like,
"Oh, he's a real big  nerd, is he? Oh, no." 

C - Good art or art that has kind of meaning  that's kind of made with people um  demands some element of your presence  like kind of what would you sacrifice to  be there like are you going to stand 10  hours in line so you can go see the  moment   later or you know go into the Sistine Chapel...

​Interview Starts
C-so I think you're leaving that in   

Z- 100% like the bit that I just did with  Curtis and me at the end being   

C- Yeah,   

Z- We're children children at heart.  Anyway, hello today everyone. I'm here  with Charlie Menzies and uh we're going to be doing our  lovely interview for four already.  Hopefully all going well. We have these  lovely little chinchilla looking  microphones today. So, we should be  sounding a lot better than we have for  the previous ones. But for anybody who's  here for number four, thanks for being  here. Um, I cannot wait to hear all  about this. It's something very  different today and I'll let Charlie  tell you all about it. Um, but for now,  let's start with what I normally end  with, which is where can people find you  if they want to hear more about you  beyond this?   

C- Absolutely. Um, so you can find us at  www.parablegames.co.uk.  GamesParable on X Twitter, whatever  the hell it is now. 

Z- I don't know. I don't have it.

C- Um, if  you search Parable games on Instagram and  Facebook, you can find us on there.
You  can find some under Shiver RPG as well to  have multiple pages for different  products, which I'll get into in a  minute. Yeah, but Parable Games is the  is the main search and you'll find this

Z- and they're really easy to find because  I tagged them in something the other day  and realized I wasn't following them!  So, then I followed them. I don't know  if you saw that. Okay, let's get  cracking.
Just let me find the questions  which are hopefully in your brain by  now, but they won't be in mine. I can't  remember anything.   Right. Question number one. Let's  start with number one, shall we? What is  your favourite project ever and why?
So  that can be project a game you created  just in general, even if something else  comes up in your brain that's not even  to do with this.   

C- So it's a tough it's a tough one to  answer and I wonder if you feel  similarly like this as a creative. It's  like picking between your kids.   I don't have an answer. I don't know.  Well, you know what I mean?

Z- Yeah.

C- I  don't know what I'm talking about.   That's right.   

Z- He does have one child, but it's got  four legs-  Bear.

C- Yeah. But who is who is number  one? He would get picked over  everything. But but yeah, no, in terms  of like picking between projects, each  one has  something very different to it that  scratches a different part of my brain.  But if I had if I had to pick one, I'd  say it has to be Shiver because it was  the project for me that kind of changed  the course of my creative journey  entirely into a completely different  field, different career, different life.  So, so yeah, so it would be that one. It  is my baby still is very much the one  that is kind of like it was the first  kind of main one that has spiralled up  and so everything. So yeah, have to say.

Z- Excellent choice as well  because I can actually say I have played  Shiver how many times now?   

C- Two. We're in the middle of the second  campaign.   

Z- I think three.   Three.   Oh, wait. No, because did   we did the we did the dinosaur one and  now we are doing the   Did you do

C- Did you not do the submarine  one?   

Z- No.   

C- Oh, that was amazing.

Z- Yes. Anyway, but  yes. So, so yeah. Yeah. Two times but  multiple sessions of each, isn't it?  That's always the weird bit I have to  get around in my brain of being like, is  it sessions? Is it stories kind of like  how we I know because this one's going on for like three sessions now. Um how I would  describe it before you do is a much more  accessible way of playing like a D&D  what are they called when it's a shorter  version a short campaign. It is so much  fun and like the it's not so much about  the numbers and things like that. It's  all about the story and the dice are so  much easier to use and things seem to  move a little faster and it's a little  bit more um creative. Even though D and  D can be really fun, it can also be  quite overwhelming because I've played D  and D found it that way.   

C- For any non- nerds out there watching  this, D and D and D is Dungeons and  Dragons. Um a very famous fantasy role  playing game. Um and that is what I'm in  the business of making is role playing  games. Um I I have also done this in the  past where I start talking  realize oh wait not everyone is coming  at this from an angle of knowing role  playing games but I think my playing  ship you played some Dungeons and  Dragons already  like it does feel like you and their  friends have very much fallen quite  heavily into the hobby which is really  love to see but it's a really common  thing that it's a bit of a as a hobby  it's a bit of creative gateway drug to  gaming in general.

Z-I would say  especially for anyone with a theatre  kid background.

C- You got me.   

Z-I got him. Yeah. So, yeah, thank you for  turning into what I needed to say, which  was, yes, DND stands for Dungeons and  Dragons, which is a table top game. I  just got so into talking about it,  didn't even realize that I was using the  lingo. Um, so yeah, that is what Shiver is in in essence and it's your baby and  your creation and it's incredible. So  give us a kind of  overview of Shiver in general apart from like that's what it is but like what  kind of things does it cover because I  know you've got like nine 10 how many?   

C- It would be the more recent book gets  finished and published it will be 10 I  think roughly. Um but yeah, so Shiver is  a horror role playing game. Um so really  kind of what the game is is this. It is  a book. It is a book that gives you  rules um in order to play a game on the  table top with your friends where one  player takes on the role of the  director. Um in Dungeons and Dragons it  would be the dungeon master for example,  but it's someone who's running the game  and telling the story.

Z- Yeah.   

C- Um your players are playing in that  story and inhabiting characters making  decisions. and when they make decisions  and especially try and do tough things,  they have to roll dice to determine what  happens. So for Shiver, um this took my  love of horror movies and I kind of  thought, what if I tried recreating that  feeling of inviting your friends over  for a horror movie night and you're all  kind of, you know, sitting around with a  popcorn, but you play in the movie?  Because I'm a massive horror fan and I  get really sick of people who are a bit  down on the genre going, "Oh, yeah, I'd  survive that." Yeah. No, they make  really dumb decisions. And it's the  thing as soon as you put players at the  table, as I think you've probably  experienced, you put a little tiny bit  of pressure on them. The the terrible  decisions come out of woodwork. They're  everywhere. And it's a really  fascinating thing to play  around with. Um, and kind of on the flip  side of that, I also wanted to make a  role playing game that was more  accessible as well because I started  playing Dungeons and Dragons and that's  what I was kind of doing for as well as  Cthulhu and some of the other like the  various like big ones. Um, and a lot of  my players really struggled with  numerical dice.
So, we kind of went down  a different route with it to make using  symbol dice. The rules are very kind of  light and easy to kind of get into, but  there's a lot of depth to how you can  kind of play. That is definitely how I  describe it as well because just because  it's light, it doesn't mean that it's  not got that depth and it doesn't mean  that it's not um gripping and like  exciting. Like there's still so much to  it, but it's so much easier to play  because you get to   you're not bogged down in a lot of the  weight of I should be better with words,  but not bogged down by the weight of all  of these rules and like I don't know.  Well, well, I think really kind of what  you're doing there and actually you're  kind of almost calculating  and trying to figure out it's like,  okay, how do I explain like the massy  element of the pluses and minuses of to  an audience   ultimately that's the problem. So, when  you're at a table, so the whole point of  Shiver is basically you're playing a  horror movie with your friends. That's  the whole point.   And in a horror movie, if the characters  suddenly pause and be like, "Right,  okay, right. I'm going to swing my axe.  I'm going to hit the zombie in the head  and hopefully I'll kill it. Otherwise,  it might eat me."

Z- Right. Okay.

C- Okay, so  now I just need to get out this table  and it's plus two here. It's a minus  thing and do the cross division here and  all of a sudden the tension is it's  gone. It's it's evaporated.   

Z- I'm back in like year 10 maths having a  terrible time.   

C- Exactly. And I think for a lot of my  friends that's where they were going.  And then and that's kind of how this  started was basically a homebrew system  that I played with a bunch of my old  screenwriting friends from my course and  like kind of been ding when I was still  living down London and just did it as a  way like we don't have that much time.  We're quite busy. They're bouncing off  of this rule set. You know, I'm I'm  enjoying it. Let's make something that's  really really fun. And basically we  played that for a year before I even  showed it to anyone else like in a  group. Yeah.   

Z- That's amazing.   

C- Yeah. So So Shiver was just like a thing  that I did with friends for as just like  a a fun a fun creative thing. I never  really considered it   um anything until like a very key point  and then that kind of that's what it  kind of evolved into something else from  there. Yeah.   

Z- Amazing. I think that'll probably fit  into one of the other questions. So this  might build on that. What's the biggest  challenge you faced in that project? So  when you were creating Shiver because we  all talked about how good it is and this  and that. What's the biggest challenge  you faced?   

​C- Oh Christ, there's so many.  It's so for a bit of context is I before  designing this game, I was in the film  and TV industry. That's where I kind of  started where my love of like horror and  stories and kind of like cinematic  storytelling generally came from. Um,  and I always thought like that's kind of  where I was going to be going. So, it  was really interesting moving into an  entirely new sphere. Um, and basically  having to  tussle with serious imposter syndrome  because I kind of had a very sudden  sharp route into the industry and was  suddenly like there doing shows and like  the book was published, it was out and  like being sold and I was like, "Oh."  And then It was all just quite a lot.  And I had that kind of feeling because  it's when something like that happens so  fast.   

Z- Yeah.   

C- And you completely pivoted from some  from another creative field. Um and  suddenly that is kind of gaining  traction when there have been people  there who've been you know working in  that industry for like kind of 10 years.  And it was a very strange thing for me  to pass that like I was I was here I was  doing well like people enjoying what I  was making even though fundamentally it  was the first thing I'd ever made that  was a game and I think that was that was  a big one especially with the sugar core  rule set   was like I' i'd never I'd never done  anything like that before and it was  kind of a bit of a hail Mary kickum  we'll probably get into kind of a later  the actual history of it. But yeah, no  kind of like tussling with am I actually  a professional? Do I belong to be in  this space? Do I belong to be do does my  stuff belong in stores? Like like kind  of like people are paying this something  I've made on the regular and playing it.  And it is this kind of interesting thing  of like being very proud of the thing  that you've made.   Yeah.   But it kind of being because it's the  first one, it kind of being like it's  got to be a fluke. like it's like  something something's not quite right  and that has faded. It's always still  there like a little bit. And I think the  other thing as well I will say about the  role pack in general is it's generally  an older  space like in in terms of um like kind  of more I mean like DND was late ' 80s.  So you have much older longer  established country um companies um and  products as well product lines. to me  like D and D obviously like kind of  being one of those but like poor Cthulhu  which is probably one of our biggest  competitors and a game that I absolutely  love um from Chaosium is very much kind  of in that and it was like kind of like  entering in where you know you've got  these basic games that are   straight in with the big dogs basically.   

Z- Yeah.

C- And these and these games are like  you know this is like first edition of a  thing I've never made before and then  you know you're going up against  something like which is on its eighth  ninth edition like Yeah. 89th edition  now though.   Well, we're still first edition, but  it's   but but yeah, and I think it's a really  important thing to talk about because I  think a lot of don't that like you  always have that little voice inside  your head. Oh, maybe it's just me.   

Z- Definitely not.

C- It's not  that like I  even even the world and the people the  product itself is saying is like this is  good everything is fine   if you don't feel  like internally like you've proved  yourself enough in that arena.   

Z- Yeah.   

C- Um there will be that that that anxiety  that's that's doubt that's there that  kind of handing that can kind of happen.  But um and then it turns out the way to  get past that was just to keep  publishing more books which is what we  did. So it's it's definitely faded. Um  but there's there's always like you know  when you try something new so for  example actually here. So um so like I  branched into solo role playing games  with don't play this game. I started  designing it a couple of years ago and  and that kind of got released and that's  that been really well received. It was a  was a very tough book to write. Um but  in terms of that it definitely awoke  solution to being like although it's a  role playing game   it's in a very very different sphere  role playing games it's designed for  singular person to play and be a very  personal experience which is very  different design ethos so so yeah again  with lots of people proving in that  space so so yeah imposter syndrome  that's that's what I would say   side quest question yeah slash statement 

Z- I bet the first time you held one of  these in your hand was insane   

C- When it's being published I teared up.  Like it's so   so like as a kid and and it's  interesting because it's something that  faded away a little bit more of that. I  always had a dream of being like one day  I'll have a book published like a hard  cover book. It'll be mine. It'll be  something I've written and it'll be  done. Um and that kind of like faded  away a bit when I kind of went to film  being oh I'm going to be like directing  a film when I'm 30. Like kind of like  like that energy kind of went more that  way. Um when it turns out that actually  um Kids Charlie was was more realistic. 

Z- Um he he knew what was up.

C- He knew he  knew what was where I should have been  going. But but yeah, no, it was very  emotional when they arrived.  And then I think there was another layer  of that where there's one thing where  you've like printed something and made  and you you're holding the finished item   and that feels really really good.   It's a whole different thing where you  go into a shop where you go and buy  other things that you will go like so  like traveling man for example in the UK  go to get like novels and things like  that and going traveling man for the  first time   and seeing on shelf.

Z- Yeah.   

C- Like in a way it was-  I couldn't I couldn't quite-   Yeah. Put it together and it was really  lovely of seeing a load of my friends  who are also as well around the UK just  being like oh sh- they show me where it  was popular as we went into distribution. So,  so yeah, I'd say like that was that  two-tier thing of like getting the  physical thing is always really magical  like the first time around and it is  every with every project that we do, but  seeing it seeing it in shops, it's  definitely three-fold. It's you get the  physical thing yourself,   it's seeing in shops, but the real magic  is where you go into shop and you see  yourself being played   that or you go to a convention and you  see it being played.   Oh my god. Especially when it's being  played, it's not being run by you for a  change because it invalidates that  element of being like,   "Oh, it is like someone else can do it."   Especially the fact that I've run it for  a year just for my mates. It gets out of  that thing of like I'm just making more  friends and just running this for more  people and spreading it like in a really  slow grassroots way, but it's kind of  when you go to conventions and be like,  "Oh no, there's like   somebody is saying your name outside of  a room that you're not in."   

Z- Exactly. but they're playing your game  outside of a room that you're not in and  it's going well.   

C- Yeah, it's mad. Like it's crazy. Like  like it's it's a it's a very strange  feeling. And I said a new a recent one  with this one because it's a over the  past year or so is um translations.  That's another one is seeing proofs and  books of something you've written in a  completely language and being played by  people in other countries in a language  that's not not your own is yeah wild.   

Z- That's incredible. I love that. Thanks  for that extra question in there. Um okay so to a little bit I like this  question because I think everyone has  those hard days but how do you push?  There's two questions and there's a  knowing when to stop one's coming next.  But the first one is how do you push  through on a hard day when everything  sort of stacks against you but you need  to push through. How do you push  through? What do you do?   

C- Oh, it's a it's a mixture of things. I'd  say I'm very much a if I'm feeling  overwhelmed with a lot of stuff going  on, which quite often there is with  projects that we're doing.   I'm a big fan of lists. I'm a huge fan  of lists. So, I'm breaking things up  like day by day.
So then I can kind of  because I think it's if you're feeling  overwhelmed on that day, it's not just  about what's there on that day. It's  about what's all around it. I get that.  So to tell me what I tend to do is like,  okay, if today's really overwhelming,  the rest of the week is probably feeling  just as bad. Yes. If I don't get a  handle on it. So if I don't have a  handle on it already, I'll sit down,  I'll make lists of like everything that  I need to do, actually think about  prioritization.
Now that we've grown a  little bit, I actually start thinking  about delegation. I never used to do um  and now kind of getting a lot more used  to but being like okay that is actually  work I can let go I don't need to do  don't m about it spread the work out   um and yeah and then just kind of making  those lists individually for each day of  like kind of what I feel needs to be  done   and then I do the reality pass as I kind  of call it where I be like actually what  can I physically get done in a day  because I   overestimate   I I am terrible for it. I will  overestimate all the time and then be  will be disappointed when I don't hit  all the targets.   But when someone says, "Oh, Charlie,  what are you doing today?" And you list  all of these things. They go, "Wow." And  you're like, "But I'm not done.   I'm not I'm not done." And it's not  exactly what I wanted to do. That was on  my list.   And and and there is the the sharper  edge of lists as well, like if you don't  balance them correctly, is that actually  it's just  slightly too high, uneven, wobbling  towers of stuff.   Yeah.   Um so you have to kind of make those  split those towers up as much as you can  and recognize when one is still wobbly  and then take stuff out of that and give it to somebody else. Put it into next  week. Move the deadline. Have that have  those have those more difficult  conversations that do make you feel  uncomfortable but need to happen.   Yeah. If you especially if you're  working in a team in in a if you're  working in a solo regard um cut cut  yourself some slack like like just give  give yourself a break if if you're  working for a client have a chat with a  client I used to do client work all the  time quite often with some clients  especially the bigger ones they ask too  much and too short of time frame so it's  kind of catching it early on great but  obviously making those assessments and  having those discussions I think is  super important but yeah you just have  to be in tune with what your capacity is  and how you manage that capacity. And  that can be lists, um, it can be kind of  like calendars. It it can be kind of  however you want to kind of break stuff  up. Um, and also the other thing of how  I get through a hard day is that when I  break up little tasks, when I complete a  task, I give myself some form of a treat  because ultimately I am I am a small  Labrador like Like but that the weird  thing is is that like I think people  being like that kind of idea of like  treat culture.   It's it's not what everybody thinks.  It's not like you know I'm coming down  having a pat of chocolate like every 20  minutes when I do like one tiny thing.   It's more like sometimes it can be like  I'll come downstairs and I'll make a cup  of tea. Needs to do many stay hydrated.   Or it's like I'll just pop outside for  10 minutes and go for a short walk  around the block. Treat   like some would say life maintenance and  health. things you should be doing  anyway. I say free.   If you restructure them as treat in your  brain, that's like a double whammy.   Exactly. So you get a dopamine hit for  being a treat and then you're actually  just doing something sweet anyway. So  yeah, it so and I think that is a really  healthy way to kind of balance yourself  when you get  how can I kind of put this when because  this is something very specific for me.  When you get hyperfocused in on  something   Yeah. and everything else fades away.   Of like to remember that you're still a  being that has physical needs.

Z- Correct.   

C- Yes. Who should who should eat, have a  shower, go for a walk, see the see the  sun, like it's   before it goes down.   Before it goes down, which in winter is  the worst. So So yeah. So So I think it  is remembering all of those things. So  yeah,   I definitely know that one because now  it's getting darker as well. My desk  face is a wall. So sometimes I turn  around them and I'm like, "Oh my god,  he's got no."   Yeah.   Miss it.   So yeah. So lists and treats, brackets,  taking care of yourself, but disguising  it as don't mean hit.   

Z- Yeah.   Perfect. So how do you know when you've  hit the point where you're like, I need  to take a break? And I mean like you can  take that however you will, but I think  it's more I'm meaning more of like a  whoa there, horsey. I need a break for  either an hour or week. How do you know  what are the signs for you?   

C- It it can vary in the different ports of  work that I'm doing. Um when it's like  editing and layout work.   Yeah.   It's when I feel a mounting frustration  and like I'm teaching on the edge of  anger at something. If I feel angry at  the work itself,   yeah,   then that's a sign I need to just take a  step back because I'm just too  irritated. like and usually it's because  Adobe's crashed or like you know  something's not working the way it  should do.   Yeah.   Um or in some cases you know there's  like a lot of mistakes or something that  haven't something unseats you and and  that frustration can build   and the thing that you don't want to do  is basically find yourself at war with  your own creation.

Z- Yeah. Because it's  not healthy. So usually at those points  I try and have walk away and have even  if it's just 10 minutes come back at it  and just be like right this is what  we're going to get done for the rest of  the day.   I think it was beautiful.   

C- Thank you.   

Z- At war with your own creation.
Oh your  words you and segways nice onto writing. 

C- Writing is a bit different. So writing I  rarely get frustrated or angry at the  part I probably enjoy the most.   Um  with writing it's more like um  So it's not right writer's block in the  way that I think people think writer's  block is. So  this is another this is another pet  peeve of mine I think in terms of how  people actually perceive like what  writer's block is. So so I think for  some people when they think writer's  block is like I can't write a single  word like you know every single source  of words has been blocked up and I can't  put anything paper writer block is  actually different. write book is like  you put stuff on page you're like no  that delete it you write again it's  be like no not quite right there and you  get stuck in like an edit loop on like  sentence and at that point it's like  this isn't working yeah   or like the other type that I tend to  have sometimes when there's a lot going  on or I'm stressed I'm over tired um is  the ideas are there they're in my head I  can see them but getting them from here  onto a page in written form  is like pushing trial through a  millimeter whip pipe. Like it is awful.  It is there. There is a mental pain to  kind of trying to   push through that. And sometimes with  that that is a I set myself a very small  goal of like if that is getting really  painful then I go down like you know I'm  going to get 500 words done.   

Z- Yeah.

C- And actually just because  sometimes my method and I think some  people will disagree with me on this is  that like I set a small achievable  target. I push through to get those  words out in any shape that I can.   Yeah.   Have a break. Come back here it be like  oh Jesus Christ that's not exactly what  I mean. Okay. and and then and then  rewrite it like like fundamentally but  you need to  for me anyway I shouldn't say different  but like I feel I need to push through  and get a certain amount of what's in my  brain out um because it there is a  similarity with  the way I like to kind of think about  the brain is like um   it's if you've ever seen like overhead  maps of LA and the absolute rat's nest  of roads  than it is.   So, the way that I kind of think about  my brain is like that. It's endless  amounts of roads with lots of little  cars rushing around all the time, all  kind of and they're all different ideas.   And the thing is is that you kind of  need to be your own traffic controller  because if all lanes of traffic are  open,   it's chaos. It's too noisy. Um that your  mind gets polluted. um uh it gets jammed  up like because ideas can collide. Um  and it's I'm not talking about like just  ideas in terms of like you know like oh  yeah I've got processing and a character  and then this. It can be that but it's  also like if you're thinking about I  need to prepare for a convention, I need  to email this person. I need to do this.  I need to do that.   Um it kind of that's that is all aims of  traffic open.
So for me is one of the  things that I do and I've now some  people on my team because I think they  very similar to me um is I establish  what I call focus days. Um so it's where  I kind of set like okay the way I'm  going to do it is or focus weeks. I'm  going to be working predominantly on  this.   I will do small admin tasks and have  like admin hours on set days and then  just I say to the rest team this is how  I'm working at the moment. Um if  something is on fire call me that's  fine.
Like if it's a genuine mer you  really struggle doing that's okay but  generally don't be like  is the bane I think of any creative is  the um can you just the can you just  request like can you just do this   but what cost   yeah can you just do this and it's going  to take an hour half of your time and um  so so the way we talk about in the team  because of I'm spot my brother we have  other director Matt who's joined us and  I had a big chat them actually about  because I've kind of managed a creative  team.   I think this is a a general thing as  well is it's about gear shifting of  that. Um for me like if I can spend a  whole day writing I know I'll get a good  amount done.   Um if I only have three hours to write  and then I need to gear shift into  layout for two hours and then deliver  something and gear shift into emails and  then the expectation is that I need to  gear shift back into writing to then  finish up what I had. that last gear  shift is going to be like and that's  where that's where we're back to we've  gear shifted you know we've merged into  lanes all of the traffic coming in  traffic coming in traffic coming in but  we're not saying no no more writing  states we're shutting off that lane of  traffic   um it's rush hour   it's rush hour and that's and that's  when you get jammed up and that's and  that's where things get too noisy it  gets too polluted and then ultimately  nothing gets done because you get  gridlock and that's what happens   

Z- Incredible metaphors. I am a sucker,  like absolute sucker for a visual  metaphor for something. A wordmith,  right? Number five. What made you say  yes   or what made you say no that made you  say yes?   Um because you talked about going from  film into making games.   It might not be a singular thing, but  what is it that made you say, "Yeah,  that's I'm going to do it. I'm just  going to do it."

C- This mixture of things.  I'd say I'd be very remised to mention  my not mention say my brother Barney of  that shiver I was playing you know with  my friends and stuff and and my brother  for context so he kind of lives up  around where I now live kind of around  like Nottingham share and then he owns a  friendly local gaming store so doing  like Warhammer trading card games that   what's it called I'll link it   uh seven city collectibles in San Diego  Um but yeah, he um he's been from  university he kind of discovered his  love of games like massively   and has kind of been in that world like  on the business side for a really long  time um from a very early age as well.  And I was kind of like and and and  played role playing games and stuff as  well. So when I made I had it all in  this like sprawling notebook with  sketches and various things. So I like  had all the old sketches of the symbols  for the dice and things like that   and I kind of brought it up me and came  for Christmas basically and I thought oh  you like games I actually made a game  it's just been like maybe to play it  like sometime and showed him it and he  kind of sat down and we had like a I  seem to remember Barney having like a  whiskey having a whiskey out just like  we're in our early 20s at this point you  know   that's cool and   now we're drinking coffee   fish  trying desperately to make sure we for  saw blazer.
Um but yeah, no. Um and he  read through it and he kind of wing kind  of sat there and I remember he post  looked up at me and he said, "When do  you want to make it?" And and I was like  I was like, "What do you mean?" And and  so I didn't say yes initially, but he  kind of he was like, "Well, it's like  you've designed it. You're playing with  your friends and it's ultimately to be  frank. It's some I sell RPGs in my shop  and it's something I've not seen before   and I think it is a gap that you've  filled because you filled it by making  something that you want to play and you  love.   So this seems like it could be really  fun. I can help. Do you do you  want to give it a whirl?   
So I went Yeah. So So then Barney got  more involved and he used to be like a  competitive like gathering player like  like no obviously knows all of these  rule systems. So when it came to like  W's writing, I could get a semblance  down of kind of what I wanted and get it  quite far, but then Barney was then  there as kind of like a major editing  force on the initial kind of pass  turning into a proper rule book, we'd be  like, okay, so we need to talk about  keywords, for example. So when we talk  about something mechanical that happens  repetitively throughout the game, we  need a capitaliz word that repeats  itself throughout the book. That's in  the glossery that's here. And and it was  like, okay, but yeah, because like in  trading card games that's a huge thing  of like um   you know you know what charge means you  know what I'm trying to remember Magic  the Gathering terms now I can't because  I  -

Z- I can only think of like Baulders Gate  ones now.   

C- Yeah but yeah no but it's yeah like  knowing those status effects knowing  those things like because um because  ultimately what you are doing and this  is where the kind of the bit that  surprises me in terms of how my brain  works and actually adapting to this  quite well I feel is it's a programmatic  language. It's kind of what you're  doing, but you're trying to make a  programmatic language palatable to  people in a book format. Because  ultimately, like in a video game,   um you can pull back that programmatic  language really, really far by reducing  it down to a simple series of inputs, decision points.

(The camera changes)

Z- There we go.   So, if anyone's noticed, not if you're  listening to it as a podcast, you won't  know, but if you are watching it on  YouTube, you will now see that the  quality of the camera has gone up  because I haven't gone to borrow Dale's  phone because I filmed mine with videos  of random other art. So, what we're  going to do is to go seamlessly back  into that wrap up talking about um the language of I forgot what we call...

C- So,  so like with the language of like games  like this, it was um we're talking about  like programmatic language which is kind  of like rules language um and how like  in video games for example, a lot of  your stuff is role playing games that  stuff's hidden and is produced down into  basic inputs and your game engine itself  is doing all the calculations. In the  case of this, like your GM becomes that  your whoever is running the game kind of  has that element, but the players do  take like you kind of form a game engine  together um in terms of how you interact  with it, but then you have the the base  language that you're all speaking  through is that   it's really nice to see someone do a  dice roll and you're not going, "What  does that mean?" like this dice rolls  and you see the colors or you see the  symbols and everyone reacts after a  while and you don't always get that with  roleplay games but with this one in  particular you see that and you're like  oh my god three keys too strange it's  great and it's got it own language and I  love that   it was a big thing with like yeah  symbols and color there's a in the in  the rule book I call it rolling the  knuckle bones because it's that's what I  wanted to happen of being   to feel like that mad stoop cone in a  cave throwing crab bones down and being  bad marriage.  It's bad marriage. Yes. It's just  horror. It's it's and doing that. And I  think it's it's always more interesting  when other people can read, understand,  and interact other people's dice roles.   And that that is basically the it's like  what we're talking about like with  tension. Like when people are doing  maths, tension is dead.

Z- Yeah.   

C- Um when people are looking at a dice  pool realizing the consequence of that   straight away.   Straight away um the tension is  maintained and if not ramped up because  the consequence is immediate and in  shiver there's elements mechanically  that impact story. So in terms for me  that's where the special source of  design is for me in game design is where  you're taking stuff that is more on the  mechanical side and like having it  interact with story and player  narrative. So for the best example like  was the Doom Clock.   

Z- Yeah.   

C- So so like in shiver basically you've  got like a fist full of dice. The better  you are the more dice you roll. Um and  all the dice have different symbols on  them. Um one of them is a purple eye  with the shiver s on. It's called  strange strange symbol. Um so unless  you're actively looking for that dice if  you roll and you fail um you count up  the number of strangers in that pool and  you add it to the doom clock which is 60  minute clock. Um we're at 15 minute  markers. bad stuff happens.   

Z- You say that in game as well. Like bad  stuff is gonna happen and we're like oh no.   

C- And I think to to quote Harriet and be  like what's going to happen? It's like  I'm not going to tell you because that's  not how horror movies work. It's it's  like the whole point is the whole thing  that maintains attention is that you  don't know. you just know that these  markers   that are ultimately met by  and sown by the your own actions and  failures um that is going to be a direct  result of that and and I think that is  the big thing where it's um with any RPG  or kind of game the thing you're looking  at is if we're going to go more in the  code programatic languages you're  looking for input and output or your in  the way is is um player decision  should always lead to consequence and it  is always more satisfying when it is  narrative consequence that keeps the  momentum of the story moving forward in  an interesting way.   The last thing you want to have is you  rolled a 10. What does a 10 mean? I  don't understand. I'm going to do some  math now. Um 10 is actually well it's  not great but it's not bad. You don't  succeed. What do you want to do next?  Um, it literally takes the- And I think  that's where a lot of people bounce off  of D and D. And don't get me wrong, like  there is a reason D&D has been the  market leader for like a long time. It's  fantastic. It's fantastic.

Z- It's  fantastic.

C- It allows you to do so much.  Um, it I I personally feel like on a  book level, it struggles on the roleplay  side of it. And it is very much a very  comprehensive compact like in a lot of  ways. um and has a lot of other  interesting stuff that's in there and a  lot of meat for people to sit their  teeth into and is extremely modular and  I think that is the thing that a lot of  people on the game side really really  enjoy because they can hack it to pieces  and do what they like with it.   Um some points to absolute death. Um I'm  in a group called begging you to play  another RPG. Um, but that is a real  that's a big side quest that I'm not  going to right now because of the amount  of jokes that people make about being  like, "But couldn't you just do that in  fifth edition Dungeons and Dragons?"  It's like, and to quote Dr. Ian Malcolm  from Jurassic Park, it's like you could  and you thought so long about the fact  that you could that you didn't actually  think about whether you should and maybe  you should. Try an indie game or another  game and play something different.  People, come on.   

Z- Did you Did you plan to say this or ?

C- No, that's- No, that's how I feel about  it. like good god like it's it's a  constant  battle for other designers of being like  D and D is there in space. D and D is is where it is in the space  for a reason the way that players  respond to it react to it and develop  very strange loyalties to certain  elements can sometimes be very baffling  very frustrating. Um but it is  ultimately something that we kind of  like have to deal with as designers  because it is there is And I think it's  really interesting if you're working in  a creative space is that you don't have  a lot of creative spaces this very large  totem pole near monopoly force. Yeah.  That's kind of in the middle of it. Um  as like a as a semi genesis point as  well. I tangented hard there. No, I love  it. Too close to the sun.
Yeah, but to but to wind it back,  the the issue that you run into with con  um basically player input leading to  consequence that has narrative momentum  and drive to it is just that is that um  it's twofold of D and D. It's what does  a 10 mean? Like literally num numbers  unless it's a one or a 20, it means  nothing to people like because that's  how people It's like, "Oh, I fell really, really badly. Oh, I did really  really good." And that's people's brains  are very binary when it comes to that  element. Um because numbers I think  don't especially because it's a data set  from like 1 to 20 is actually in terms  of role play is pretty large. like it's  that gradual things you know like you  know it's like if I got 10 or an 11 like  what's the difference between 10 and 11  like you start to get into those  stepping things of like how do you make  a judgement and and generally it's like  unless it is like a very specified rule  generally it is up to the GM to just  decide yeah   um which is totally fine and it and it  gives you a lot of flexibility in many  many ways but numbers don't speak to  people numbers don't tell   unless maybe you've been playing for a  very long time and you can automatically  recognize that.

Z- But I think with this  game,   as somebody myself ADHD, playing this  game is everything that I hoped Dn D   would be straight away like not to be  like, but it's like you're in it, you  play when you roll the dice, you haven't  had to do a massive amount of leg work  to and everyone's involved in those dice  rolls as well. We're all watching like  this. Yeah, you do get that a bit with D  and D. It's just it's a lot harder to  for me personally to concentrate when  there's a lot of  

C-Yeah.   

Z- in and out, in and out. Whereas with  Shiver, it's a we're in, we're doing it,  it's moving.  Yes. So, the difference is is that to  really Yeah, I think you are right.

C- You  captured me quite well. Like, it's  unfair to say that numbers don't tell  stories because they really do. But the  problem is is that in order to be able  to have numbers tell a story to you, you  need to understand what the numbers mean  in the context of that game.   Yeah.   Um, and the numbers in the context of  that game can change vastly   character to character and what's on  their sheet and what classes and bonuses  they have. that isn't active impressive  information for everybody because you  can't be looking at six character sheets  all at once   as a player in particular as a GM you  have to um as as as a player you you  kind of don't have that really in Shiba  the whole kind of reason behind the  symbolic dice and that everything kind  of has its element of meaning it  represents an aspect of your character  also has just like a certain vibe to an  action it's like do you do something  with force do you do Yes.   With kind of you do something that's a  bit sling like you do something with  like charisma and you like really kind  of kind of throw your back into it like  in terms of performance and   it means that the other dice can if you  have success the other dice can color it  and kind of give you roleplaying like  hints and help of of like how how you  succeed. Um it colors failures really  really nicely um as well of that um you  do something very different and it ends  up going in a completely different  direction.
Now, as we talk about like  with the doom clock, it if you roll a  stranger trick to an event, you feel the  consequences of your actions in the  narrative very sharply. Um, so I'll use  an example for example.  I can't get up.  Um,   so say we are in a 1980s. Um, and  there's a slasher abroad chasing you  down um, you know, running at you with a  machete and you want to kick down um, a  door into a cabin and and try and hide  inside. So, say you run towards it and  you kind of you roll your dice and you  try and kind of kick it down. Um, you  fail, you roll a bunch of strange, it  triggers a doom event. Um, I could say  you kick the door open, the splinter  goes into your leg. Um, and you stumble  and you st and you stumble back and  you're now moving really really slowly.  And as the door slowly swings open, the  slasher is magically on the other side.  Because if you lose sight of them, they  are want to teleport. And we literally  put a rule in trigger for that. When you  lose sight of a slasher, they can  magically teleport to another area where  you can't see them and then appear  again. The more supernatural ones that  are in there. Um, so that's like an  emblem of like how that works kind of in  a doom like in a Doom clock scenario.   Um, so say you shift the system over to  DND. Um, so quite often when it comes to  doors, um, a lot of people's first one  in is I want a lot pick and you're in a  group. Um, you do you're encouraged not  to split up because of the way the  balancing works in time horror movie.  I want you to die. Um, no, don't don't  tell the group. I said that.   

Z- We literally had someone's character  just die.   

C- He did jump out the window from like two  stories off.

Z- I think Harriet wanted him to die.   

C- I think she did. Yeah.

Yeah. Harriet was  the person controlling. So just to be  clear. Um so so yeah and it's and this  is a really common phenomenon that you  get in D and D and I think it's a lot of  GMs if you GMs are out there and you're  listening I think you recognize the  scenario. Encounter heavy door. Player  wants to lockpick door. They're not  probably the best at lockpicking. They  roll their dice. They fail. They don't  actively see anything else around that's  going to cause a problem. They keep  rolling. Someone else turns up being  like, "Oh, maybe I'll roll and see if we  can get through." And eventually the  scene that you get when you actually  imagine it and put in your head of like  what the players are actually doing and  and this is where the disconnect in  terms of narrative happens and the kind  of the cinematic element that you're  maybe trying to create a table is  ultimately you've got five fantasy  characters around a door fiddling with a  lock for 20 minutes basically brute  forcing it through the programmatic  language of chance of lobbing a d20  again again again until somebody gets  it does happen or it doesn't happen  maybe to that extreme extent but it does  happen that way and that was one of the  big design things in my brain of being  like I as a GM hate that it happens  because it's it's like for me running  games it's like I want things to feel  immersive and cinematic. I want people  to feel like they're in a movie.
And I  know some people be like, they may  disagree kind of with that as like an  experience, but for Shiver in  particular, I want people to feel like  they're in a horror movie. And to get  away from that, um, the dice need to  have sharper consequence and more clear  consequence   and also more information for you and  the player to pivot in a different  direction. Um, so like if you roll d if  you roll a strange, you trigger a doom  event, bad can happen to you. If  you roll a load of dice, you can succeed  in a totally spectacular way that then  helps you discover another thing and  moves the story forward even faster. Um,  or you can fail forwards in an  interesting way. So, the common one I  use in conventions to explain the dice  system is you try and kick the door  down. You roll a load of smarts. You  kick the door, you stop your toe, you  take more damage. You have a consequence  there. However, as you stumble back, um,  you notice that one of the four boards  is sitting a little bit more strangely  compared to the others. You pull it up  and you discover there's a key hidden  under there to use your brain. Um, and  and it's And that's something we  encourage uh for both sides of the table  to do. So it's like that's something a  GM can do. That's something a player can  do.
I often use it with younger players.  So like we we run games, you know,  people up usually um and and some of  these kids have never played role  playing games before and it's a lot of  um okay so like you rolled a load of  smart. So like can you think of like a  brainy way that your character would get  past this door and tell me what it is  and then they'll tell me. They'll be  like that's what happens. That's sick.  That's really cool. They're like  awesome.

Z- Yeah.

C- I added to the story  because it's it's not about for me role  playing is not about putting forward a a  puzzle that your a puzzle or a situation  that your players are going to have stat  statistically overcome.   It's about them being involved in a  narrative that they can help shape um  and ultimately feel the consequences of  their actions within that narrative  involved as well. And I think that is  two very is a very different way to lead  design. Um and I think a lot more games  are now moving in that direction   especially because of the representation  of role playing games in the media and  like and people like yourself being like  this is what I think D and D  is or like kind of like what a role  playing game is from when you watch like  the kids and stranger things playing in  the basement. Um Critical Role running  their campaigns. um the numerous like  actual play podcasts that are kind of  out there. Um and but it's not to say  that those aren't roleplaying, but it's  ultimately they are they are facets of  role playing that are refined to be  entertainment.   That's it. They're refined. That's nice.   Yeah. They're they're refined to a point  that they are entertainment and not  actually a   they don't they don't represent the full  spectrum of um what a role playing game  is like at your actual table.
They don't  have the moment where you pause for 10  minutes to find an obscure rule in the  book because one of the players has  built a really weird character.  That can be fun as well.   Yeah.   But I think this just is a wonderful in  its own right.   

Z- Yeah.   Can I ask you number  six, which is um we sort of touched on  it right at the start,   but what do you think little Charlie  would say about what you've created and  the job you do now? What do you think? 

C- I think he'd be be amazed. I I think  he'd be very happy.   Yeah.   Which makes me very happy that that's  kind of been achieved.  Um, and I think, yeah, it's an  interesting one because I think it's  kind of what I think I said earlier of  being like, oh yeah, like kind of when I  was reading it being like the whole I  make a book that would be cool and like  that was always a bit of a dream and  that kind of got   in the path of like moving into adult  the world of work that kind of got lost  and now it's kind of circled back around  to it and I'm happy again. So,   good, I'm so glad.   So, yeah. So, so I I think they'd be  very happy. I think they'd be surprised  at what the books are.   I think I think that's that that's  that's the interesting bit. They'd be  like, "Oh, I guess she writes story  books." Not not exactly like Yeah. It's  not like a book that allows people to  tell their own stories through rolling  dice. And they'd be like, "Oh, he's a  real big nerd, isn't he? Oh, no.   Not like this."   But no, I don't really think he'd be.   

Z- But then he'd watch you playing it  around the table with all your friends. He get

C- Yeah.

Z- -your dog and your  girlfriend and it will be right. Yeah. Okay. You're a cool nerd.   

C- Yeah. He's fundamentally understand it's  basically what me and my brother were  probably trying to do when playing with  Lego together like with characters  moving them around and trying to make  little games out of it to which Barney  would make the rules. I would never  understand them fully and Barney would  always win.   Wow.

Z- It's always something like that,  isn't it?   

C- Yeah.   

Z- I love that.  What do you wish more people knew about  because I'm sure there are people out  there of obviously who want to make  their games and do this sort of thing.  What do you wish they could know more  about the process or people who have not  like what do you what's the thing you'd  like them to know?

C- I think for me it's  it's kind of the view that if you're  wanting to get into RPGs and making  books and stuff like this that it's not  as simple as sitting down just writing   an adventure and putting it out there.  That's like your first step is what I  would say. If you're wanting to get to  published book territory or even like  published adventure territory or like  working for an RPG company, I think the  thing I'd like people to know most is  that they need to be prepared to wear  multiple hats   and not be afraid of stepping into areas  that they don't know that they're  uncomfortable in and try something  that's a bit different.
So like for me  for example like I just wanted to write  really I kind of was very interested in  that like there was a time where I was  going to illustrate sh and then we  swerved away from that and realized  that's insanity too much work.   

Z- Oh my god as an artist hearing that and  you try to do I'll be like  yeah-

C- and then we discovered Ben who's one of  my sisters in laws friends who's now the kind of the  lead artist for Shiver and is amazing. Um,  but yeah, it's it's trying your hand at  certain things and filling that gap even  if it's something that is not necessary  the strength you enjoy it. So for me, I  do all of the layout in in design and  all of our um negotiations and stuff  with like our print houses. So like I  determine like kind of like the print  finishes, like how the books look, all  the technical aspects of that, like  making sure they print correctly.   And I'm not going to lie, when it comes  to technical print stuff, it's those  dishes. I hate it. like it is not good.  It's not fun. Like it's really not fun.  But I think the thing is is that I'd  like people to know more about the  process. I think this is goes broader  than just RPGs. That ultimately to make  something you love come to life, you're  going to have to do things that you  don't enjoy, don't necessarily feel that  good at. Um but in order for the thing  to exist, no one is going to do it for  you. Like no one is going to do it for  you.
Especially if you're working solo  or in a small team, like sometimes you  just have to like suck out and just do  it and try it. I mean, I was working on  uh the first book and then the Gothic  books when I was still working um at the  university. I was like doing it in my  spare time and I taught myself in  design. Um in that time, I went on  graphic design courses. Um, I had chats  with people like in the graphic design  department like luckily about like  certain issues I was having very  sneakily uh to be.   

Z- Yeah.

C- Yeah. Like lent on some of my  co-workers a little bit um when I was  still working there like to kind of just  learn a little bit more.   Um and that's just the kind of thing  that you need to do. Um, and try and  find the fun and the passion in it where  you can. Um, because otherwise you find  yourself capped out at certain points of  like if you're really good at writing  adventure, then unless you're willing to  pay someone to lay it out and artwork  it, then really it's going to be like a  really good game. You can run at  conventions and you run it like at like  shows and like friendly local gaming  stores. But if you can't lay out into a  PDF that's deliverable drive through  RPG, you're not even able to sell it  digitally. Yeah,   because no one is going to pay money for  an ugly pain document or I mean like you  know when you know you can go on and get  a really good adventure laid out you  know it's like 15 pages for a fiber like  it's it's in terms of like kind of  knowing that market and knowing where  your weaknesses are and what outlay  you're willing to put out into the world  in order to make your thing come to  life. Whether that's learning it  yourself   or actually supporting another creative  by paying them to do it.   
Don't use AI and rely on that.  I'm gonna I'm gonna throw that out here  now.   

Z- Yeah. The creative people are here. We  we do charge money, but that's because  it's our job and we like to eat food and  keep a roof over our head.   

C- Yeah. And we'll get the number of  fingers right. It's like, come on.   

Z- I might not. So, I will forget to count.   

C- But yeah, in all in all serious, my you  our frustration with AI. It's  interesting just as a note um the for  people who don't know is that like a  role playing  fascinating is extremely anti AI on the  CR like fiercely.   Um so like we're working I can't say who  yet but working to go onto a virtual  tabletop platform that just would  interact with AI content in any way. If  anything discover you're using it,  they'll ban you. Like it is it's it's  yeah like there are spaces out there. 
There is hope. Like don't worry like  yeah it's um but but it is something to  challenge but I think it is also if you  are a creative who is hitting a certain  wall in your own process. I would  implore you  plan either learn the skill yourself and  upskill yourself and put the time into  developing yourself or you know save up  the money like you were saving up to buy  like a new games console or something  like that and invest in another creative  to help you bring that to life   and it will be a lot more satisfying  than going down the the dark art route   the dark arts that route that makes it  sound cool. Oh, no.   
Let's just call it is it's like the lazy  tech bro like I think I think that's the  issue is that there was an I was  watching interview with Gil Toro  recently. I think he summarized really  nicely when it comes to the creative  process. This comes into what also I  think I'd love people to know about  creative process especially with the  spectra of AI hanging over all of us. um  is that art has a human cost to it to  exist.   And I think the thing is is when you  look at the stuff that AI is making off  of the backs and the training of people  who have put that effort in, it's it's  very very sad. But I think like kind of  when you actually look at the stuff that  AI is making compared to what people are  making, you know, people who are paid  fair wage um to actually make and create  and put out into the world is do how  much How do you spend when you come  across this AI slop? Like you literally  just skip past it. When you actually  interact with real art, art made by  people with passion and kind of an  actual story to tell, you spend time  with it. I think Gilard Toro put it best  is kind of um good art, I'm going to be  paraphrasing him a bit here, is  basically like kind of good art or art  that has kind of meaning that's kind of  made with people um demands some element  of your presence. like kind of what  would you sacrifice to be there? Like  are you going to stand 10 hours in line  so you can go see the moment Lisa?   Um or you know go into the system chapel  um or or you know book early so you can  go see that film and support it in the  cinema like I did with Frankenstein. It's great great  film. I'm very obsessed with it at the  moment. Um, it's it's yeah, I think  we we we sacrifice our our time, our  money, our focus for art that means  something to us. Um, and the thing that  AI generated stuff currently is lacking  is that because ultimately it's  throwaway. It's very immaterial. It's  kind of there and it's exist for a  second and we scroll past it. Whilst  really we should be investing in artists  who will make stuff that will become  somebody's favorite game that they play  every week or their favorite movie that  they watch every year at a certain time  of year because it reminds them of  something they love. Like that's the  kind of thing that we should be putting  investment into rather than stuff that  actively destroys that pathway and that  kind of content for people to actually  enjoy the game. 

Z- Yeah,   I like that.   Last question. Is there a moment and  that doesn't have to be that changed?  Oh. So, so, so I I've already talked  about Barney and and kind of Christmas  and I think that that is that is a  moment.   Do you want when you make this that   Yeah. Yeah. That that was kind of like  the validity stamp of being like,   oh,   you're your  exactly like of just being like, no,  like this is actually something. This  isn't just a fun throw away creation  that you've made. that's only could be  joy for one a small group of people. Um  Barney's put it quite well of that one  of the best things about our jobs is  that ultimately we are merchants of joy.  We are merchants of of fun of people  have sitting down getting together  around the table in person.   

Z- Tell me you have a name tag. Charlie Menzies is merchant of fun.   

C- Yeah. But I think that that came we've  already kind of talked about it. I think  for me if it was kind of a more personal  moment that changed everything is that  once the dust had settled with the  initial release and shiver  um till we went to UK games expo we won  um the people's choice award for best  new RPG for the core rule book and it  was the first thing I ever made in the  sphere   and after that I kind of accepted that  that was real because that took a while  um imposter syndrome has privacy discuss   holding the award like I don't think  this is real   was was a a general review of kind of  what I actually wanted to achieve  creatively with my life   because I think the issues for I think I  probably alluded to it earlier of being  like you know I want to direct a film by  the time I'm 30 like I have very  specific goals of being like really  wanted to like kind of make a film and  and kind of get it out there and see it  on the cinema screen but then there was  also all these time elements of being it  needs to be by him like  all of this um and all of these kind of  very go basically a really big list that  was wavering and cheetah  list and then actually what it actually  took is rather than actually putting  that list is that what it need is the  whole tower just need to be kicked down   and shiver kind of did that it realized   it opened up a door in my brain of what  my creativity should be and what it  should be about because for me I always  thought I'm trained in film and TV. I  know how to make films. Like this is  what I should be doing. I want to direct  films. I want to start film. And and  then as you see how the towers grow like  really really quickly   which it really because I just kind of  did this as a bit of fun to kind of  express myself and do something  different and find an avenue to kind of  talk to people and tell stories and get  people engaged with something that I  love like kind of horror as a genre as  well as games. And it is the kind of  thing there was a bit of a lightning  bolt moment with it that the thing  that's important to me creating it  doesn't matter what the medium is. I  might move on from those in the future.  I may make things in other mediums and  it's the medium itself actually isn't  the thing that's important. The thing  that's important for me is that I'm  always telling stories and encouraging  other people to do so. And that's that  was the turning point.   

Z- You've got it. Yeah,   I think as long as the roots are good,  what you grow is good and that your  roots are in your storytelling and even  further down enjoy.   

C- Yeah.   

Z- Like whatever you grow from that,  whether it's games or films or whatever  comes in the future, it's going to be  good. Right.   

C- Exactly. It's I think it's really  important just not to get fixated on the  medium. I think that's and a lot of  people do it and I've taught film and  stuff for a while too and you kind of  saw it happening all the time. it needs  to be this this specific thing in this  very way. And it's kind of like when you  actually like draw it all kind of back.  Um it's kind of like why you have to ask  yourself the question of like why you  actually wanting to create what is the  drive like like what is the thing that  you're trying to do through creating?   Um and for a lot of us it's expressing  ourselves and communicating something.   Um and for me like kind of storytelling  is is something I feel very very  passionate about. So, so in terms of  like it's kind of you kind of almost  have to find that um my old  screenwriting tutor Simon Band like put  it really nicely like when you kind of  was talking about writing I think I  didn't really understand the context as  I do now at the time like with any  story that you're telling child any  screenplay that you're writing the whole  thing is you have to find this like what  is that nugget of gold within that story  like what is it you're trying to say   um with something And I think that's  what's important. It's it's kind of like  what you trying to say, what you trying  to do. Are you trying to tell a story?  Are you trying to inspire? Are you  trying to raise awareness? It's things  are way more broad brush when it comes  to creativity than just like um like I'm  an RPG designer. I only make games. I'm  a painter. I only do oil canvases. Yeah.   Like it's   that's not what it's about. And   that's not what people are coming to the  shop and looking through the shelves for  the next game of yours is. It's not what  they're looking for.   Exactly. But I think it's very in a  world that's so commercial, it's it's  something where where where we fall down  that hole as creatives really really  quickly. Our audiences hilariously don't  like but like in terms of viewing our  own stuff, they they don't see it that  way at all. And sometimes it's talking  like about going to conventions is that  sometimes meeting people who are fan of  Shiver who are playing games kind of  snaps you back to reality a bit for a  bit about like why you're doing the  thing that you're doing. I think that's  really important.   

Z- What a fantastic interview. Thank you so  much. Like my mics to work and then I'm  gonna harass Charlie and he will do my  interview in a sentence. Um, thank you.   

C- My pleasure.

Z- There's been some wonderful  nuggets in this interview. I cannot wait  to watch it back and yeah, I'm gonna  enjoy looking through all of it. Um, so  one more time,   Shiver, Parable, where can we find you?  I'm going to put it all in the the links  and stuff below here. Um, got all the  way through and enjoyed with us.   Thank you, Charlie.   

C- Thank you.   

Z- Nice. We're going to turn it off and  we're going to go harass the dog.   That was fab.   Thank

Whatchu doing sneaking about down here?

You mean you absolutely love editing huge sections of text and want to be employed by me one day to do this because it is killing my lil adhd brain? Please get in touch!

Introducing this weeks creative,

Family Filmmaker and TV Editor.

Sophie Hurry, TV editor and filmmaker, chats about her creative journey, from working on I’m a Celebrity Allstars in South Africa to launching her own filmmaking projects. She shares how challenges—like managing mountains of footage or balancing creative expectations on low-budget shoots—shaped her approach to work.
Motherhood, she says, was a complete transformation. Becoming a parent expanded her capacity for love and creativity, describing it as a “maiden-to-mother arc.” It changed how she creates, thinks, and prioritizes her energy.
Sophie opens up about pushing through hard days: affirmations, mentorship, small resets, and learning to switch from “sprint mode” to “marathon mode.” She also explains the hidden effort in filmmaking—how even a few seconds of polished editing can take hours of care.
For anyone looking to work with her, Sophie’s on Instagram (@SophieHurryFilms), with her website and mailing list launching soon. Whether you’re a parent or just curious about creative processes, her insights reveal the patience, intuition, and heart behind the work.

Q1: Introduce yourself.
A: Sophie is a TV editor (mainly edit assisting and assembly editing) and filmmaker. She highlights her experience in both commercial TV and personal filmmaking, noting the unique pressures of working professionally.
Q2: What is your favorite project ever and why?
A:

• TV: Working on I’m a Celebrity Allstars in South Africa, pre-recorded post-COVID. She loved the location, wildlife experiences, and learning to manage unexpected challenges with large volumes of footage.
  
• Filmmaking: Model calls for her filmmaking business. The second model call was her favorite, as she knew what she wanted, learned patience during a three-month editing process, and was rewarded by a happy client.
  

Q3: What are specific challenges in your work?
A: Managing huge amounts of footage efficiently, high standards while editing, low-budget projects, and balancing creative expectations with limited capacity (e.g., during pregnancy). She describes herself as a “sprinter” adjusting to “marathon mode” for longer-term projects.
Q4: How do you push through hard days and know when to take a break?
A:

• Push through: Affirmations, motivation from her child, mentorship, caffeine or tea, and small resets during the day. Reframe doubt positively.
  
• Break signals: Task paralysis or physical signs like droopy eyes indicate burnout. Ignoring them can lead to overwork.
  

Q5: What do people often misunderstand about your work?
A: Editing takes far longer than it appears—small moments require intense care. People often underestimate the time, effort, and creative intuition involved.
Q6: What moment changed everything for you?
A: Becoming a mother. She describes it as the “maiden-to-mother arc” or “mother-maiden-crone” transformation. Motherhood expanded her capacity for love and creativity, drastically changing how she approaches life and work.
Q7: How can people hire or contact you?
A: Sophie is on Instagram (@SophieHurryFilms). Her website will launch soon, and her mailing list is active. She emphasizes patience and that building a professional presence is a marathon, especially while parenting.

If you are able to subscribe to me on YouTube - I would appreciate that so much.
​Thank you.

Z: Hello everybody. Today we've got Sophie, and we've also got Baby on speed dial just in case.
S: On speed dial.
Z: This is ready to pipe up when she, uh, yeah, we're going to get to a really poignant moment and tell me more about that, and she's like "MUM!" She probably heard that, to be fair. We can't laugh too loud just because it wakes her up. Um, welcome to the third one. Thanks for being here.
S: Of course.
Z: I forgot to send you them ahead of time. Or did I?
S: No.
Z: No. Are we just going to freeball it today?
S: Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's what I'm doing most of my days at the moment anyway. So, I'm glad to hear it.
Z: I mean, is there any change from the rest of your life?
S: No.
Z: Nice. So, introduce yourself first, 'cause I think that's probably the best way to start.
S: Okay. Hi, I'm Sophie. Uh, I'm a TV editor and a filmmaker.
Z: Beautiful. I think I love that. We'll do the drop-in underneath in the description bit—all the places you can find Sophie.
S: But, um, many, many places. Many places. Don't Google me. There's stuff from my past that, you know, like--
Z: You make it sound like you've killed somebody.
S: Yeah. There's just, you know, those days of the internet where you were just posting anything willy-nilly.
Z: I think they're sweet.
S: There's some sweet stuff. Yeah. Some of them's really sweet.
Z: What do we not know about?
S: I don't want to mention—this isn't weird, by the way—it's just like a certain clothing website that we used to post outfits.
Z: Oh, and you used to take photos of--
S: Yeah. And I cannot get rid of them for love nor money because I can't remember my login details and I contacted customer support like, "Please take these photos of me away."
Z: Is the one where you would put like a mood board with all the—possibly. Anyway, the properly posed and a little--
S: Yeah.
Z: It's just baby Sophie. It's just baby S. She's just doing her thing. It's just baby S. It's just that the digital footprint for our generation is vast. Wild.
Z: Well, we'll go straight into question one, which is: what is your favorite project ever and why? It's a biggie. What's your favorite?
S: I see why getting these in advance would have given my brain cells time.
Z: Would you have had the time to look at them?
S: True.
Z: Fair.
S: Absolutely not. Fair. Um, okay. So, I suppose I can answer in two different ways. Obviously, I've got two things going on in the sense that I've got my TV work, which—I say I'm a TV editor, but predominantly my career in TV has been edit assisting, assembly editing, like junior editing. I was working my way before I had Revy to being an editor. But that's what I say I am. And obviously the filmmaker side of it, although it's been a part of me since very, very young, I probably wouldn't— not that it's not all valid—but I wouldn't count it in a sense that as a practice I probably would only count the recent project with my business as like my filmmaking. It takes on a different weight when you're doing it for work.
Z: Yeah.
S: When you're doing it for money, it's real. You know, it's always real. But it just definitely takes on a different kind of pressure. Anyway, I'm not answering your question. It's fine. I feel like the whole thing's going to be like that, and I'm really okay with it. They've all been like this so far.
Z: 100%. And I'm here for it. So, favorite project and why.
S: Okay. So, I would say when it comes to TV, there are two that really jump out at me. One of them was when I was media managing, which is kind of wrangling all the cards on location. I did a lot of location work while I was traveling abroad. For one, I did "I'm a Celebrity Allstars." Normally it's live, which I don't do, but for some reason, post-COVID fallout, they did one in South Africa because they wanted it pre-recorded just in case. So, I ended up being on that. It was actually a really difficult job because they hadn't really done it pre-recorded before. There was a hell of a lot of footage they didn’t anticipate. We were told we were going to get a certain amount of stuff to deal with and we got a totally different amount—a lot more. So from a day-to-day perspective, it was a very demanding and difficult job. But the location was incredible. I was there for my birthday, went on a safari—well, they call it game drives in South Africa—and visited an elephant sanctuary, fed elephants, got close. It was a sanctuary. That opportunity of being somewhere so different with people so different was just amazing. I did a little jaunt with my friend afterwards to Cape Town. So, from a life experience point of view, less about the actual job—it was challenging—but what it afforded me was unlike anything else.
For my filmmaking, I've done a lot of model calls recently.
Z: What's a model call?
S: So a model call is when you basically offer your services for free in exchange for the rights to use what you create for advertising, promotion, etc. They're getting a free product, but I can use it. Especially when it comes to children and babies, some families might not feel comfortable with sharing the work. I need these model calls to show people what I can do.
Z: Yeah.
S: I'd say the second model call I did was my favorite. The first was beautiful, but I was nervous. By the second one, I knew more what I wanted and came away feeling really good. The edit was long, over three months, because Revy had a sleep regression, classic four-month-old stuff. Some days I just couldn’t create. Best thing was to rest. I’ve struggled with switching from sprint mode to marathon mode. I want everything done now, but now I’ve learned patience. That time actually helped me reflect, and fresh eyes are valuable. They were so chuffed with it when I gave it to them—they sent me flowers. Amazing family, all good vibes.
Z: I think you've answered question one and two and started to add in little bits of the others as well.
S: Checking baby monitor—she's in there, not crying, so we're good.
Z: Um, for South Africa, what was a specific challenge?
S: With media manager work, it’s not really creative. We were inundated with camera cards—SD cards full of footage. There were GoPros everywhere. We had to back up, ingest, sync, LTO archive—all before the cards could go back. They didn't anticipate that amount of stuff, yet expected the same turnaround.
Z: No wonder you say you're a sprinter, having to get used to marathon mode.
S: I was incredibly good at it. Being a sprinter made me efficient, got creative stuff done faster.
S: A very challenging project—I was pregnant, editing a development project. Shot loosely, low budget. The producer had high standards, wanted polished edits for the channel. I had limited mental capacity due to pregnancy. Very challenging, but rewarding. I walked away thinking, “I can edit a full show.”
Z: Question three: how do you push through on hard days? And question four: how do you know when it’s time to take a break?
S: Push through: affirmations help. My kid is motivation. Remind myself I’m doing this for her. My editor friend and mentor passed away—what would he do? Embodying him motivates me. Caffeine or tea helps too. Small reset points in the day are valuable. Pushing through doubt: replace thoughts like, “What if it fails?” with, “What if it goes right?” Anxiety is worrying twice.
Break signals: task paralysis—ADHD brain stacks everything at once. I freeze when it’s too much. Droopy eye tells me I’m reaching a drain point. If ignored, like during my dissertation, it leads to eye twitching—a sign of burnout.
Z: -Sophie brings in Reverie, her baby daughter-
S: Seven and a half months, and she almost dribbled in my mouth—a turning point for me.
Z: What do you wish people knew about the process?
S: The smallest things take the longest. A 3-second shot in editing can take hours. You feel what it needs, you can’t always see it. People don’t understand the time, value, or effort to get it right.
Z: Last question: what moment changed everything?
S: Her being born—obviously huge. Every mother or parent would say that. From a creative standpoint, it was like going through a portal. The maiden-to-mother arc. You go through this portal and it's like the maiden to mother arc, isn't it? And you literally do transform and change--
Z: This is the tryptic thing. The mother maiden crone. I'm not even kidding. – talking about a ring –
S: So many synchronicities. Look at it. Yeah. So, from a creative standpoint, I forever changed, but I also think, um, because that's the obvious one and I, I, I know me and I'm trying to find—I'm trying to get you a juicy kind of like, you know, hidden uncovered one that's less.
Z: Sometimes there isn't. It's fine.
S: It's true. Sometimes there isn't.
Z: There's not been like I even wrote in the original question that it doesn't have to be anything big. Like that's pretty big.
S: Well, that's the thing and almost—it's a classic me thing. It's like I don't like to go for the big obvious stuff. I like to go for the nuance and I like to go to the more specific things that people might not know, you know? All right. I like to uncover. I like to uncover and have my hair pulled, obviously.
Z: Um, she wants the long hair. She's wearing it like a wig.
S: She is wearing like a wig. You'll get your own hair soon. I think I don't think I can think of one. I think it has to be that the moment she was born, I changed as a person. I felt like I was walking around with my heart working at like 5%. And you don't realize, you think that's your 100%. You think, I've got all the love I can give. I've got all the creative energy I can give, you know, and then you create a human who loves you unconditionally and suddenly you've got 95% and it's amazing and it's incredible. So yes, I've never been—I've never felt so creative. I've never had so much creative energy. Um, and how I create has changed as well.
Z: Yeah, exactly. So, I think we'll have a soft end, which is just if people want to hire you for family film, where can they go? And if they want to work with you in terms of editing, how can they contact you?
S: So, I'm on Instagram, SophieHurryFilms, and I'm hoping that in the next few weeks, like the end of September, my website will be ready. So, I say to people, go to my website, which feels a bit fraudulent right now because my website's not ready.
Z: No, because your mailing list is on there.
S: And that's—my mailing list is on there. It's so true. Yes. So, I haven't… Yeah, we're waiting. Yeah. Sign up to my mailing list on there. Um, but like marathon, not a sprint. I had all these expectations that when I would start opening my books that my website would be ready, everything be shiny, complete, perfect. That's not how life works. It's definitely not how things work with a baby. So yeah, my website and my Instagram and my email, which is [email protected]—just the one hello, which, not too hurts. Don't worry, I just wanted to add some little bit of jazz to it, didn't I? Yeah. A little bit accent. Yeah.
Z: I think it's the end.
S: I think it's the end. I think too. Yeah.
Z: Thank you, Sophie. I think it's the end. Thank you. Thank you, Revvie. You've been wonderful.
S: You've been catching a vibe.
Z: She's been catching a vibe. You've been catching a vibe. I will put all of the stuff underneath and go check out her stuff. Go sign up. And you might not have a baby, but somebody you know might be having one and those—that time we were talking to Chris and he was like, time is going very fast, so anything that we've got to kind of encapsulate that.

Introducing this weeks creative,

Voice over actress and owner of Coopers Cookies.

Caitlin's Social icons:

Listen - Caitlin's voice over work with Great Big Story.

Zoe Davey  
(to Cooper the Dog) Hello, hello, boy, we're holding feet.  - Swoosh- Right? Love that. I'm gonna shake the weird out.

Caitlin S  
That feels good.

Zoe Davey  
It's a completely normal thing to do on a Tuesday, 

Caitlin S  
We were just talking for like an hour. Now that there's a camera 

Zoe Davey    
Secretly recording...
We've got the same eight questions that we're doing with Chloe. I don't know whether to look at the camera now, because I wasn't in the first one, I'm not going to I'm gonna look at you. That's fine. Um, hello. Welcome to your living room. My name's Zoe. What's your name? 

Caitlin S  
My name's Caitlin. 

Zoe Davey 
What do you do? Caitlin?

Caitlin S  
I am a voice actor, and I also sell some baked goods in my spare time. 

Zoe Davey  
They are delicious. What is the name of your baked goods company? 

 Caitlin S 
We are Cooper's cookies.

Zoe Davey 
And who is Cooper?

Caitlin S  
Cooper is my lovely Greyhound that is sleeping just off camera. 

Zoe Davey    
Can he eat any of the cookies? 

Caitlin S  
Absolutely not. 

Zoe Davey   
Can eat any of the ingredients of the cookies?

Caitlin S  
He can have things with flour in it. Baking soda is apparently fine for dogs. I make him a cake on his birthday, and it's the ingredients are just apples, flour, peanut butter, egg and baking soda. 
 
Zoe Davey     
What does baking soda taste like? 

Caitlin S  
Nothing.

Zoe Davey 
Well, I feel like it would be-

Caitlin S  
Pretzels. To me, taste very strongly of baking soda, and they're delicious. Yeah, it's just like that, um, there's ever a baked good with too much of it in it, you know? Okay, because it's very chemical, yeah? 

Zoe Davey  
Like, kind of an almost spicy, 

Caitlin S    
yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah.

Zoe Davey    
Okay, interesting. 

Caitlin S  
My first batch of cupcakes ever tasted like pretzels, because I've got too much.

Zoe Davey  
But now, now they're fantastic, and I love them. And I love them, right? Let's start. Then we're gonna get straight into the questions, what is your favourite project you've ever worked on, and why? And we've said at the start, these questions can be to do with Voice Over acting or Cooper's, whichever or both. Take it away. What's your favourite? Maybe your favourite of each one, have you prepared that in your brain?

Caitlin S  
 I mean, to be fair, with cookies, I wouldn't say 

Zoe Davey  
What's your favourite cookie. Okay, we'll just go with that one. Red Velvet goes down very nicely. 

Caitlin S  
Red Velvet is a fan favourite, and it does very well on the market store,

Zoe Davey  
Because it's right, it's red as well. Yeah, it's delicious.

Caitlin S  
My current favourite. And whenever I do a new flavour, it becomes my new favourite. So my newest flavour is a White Chocolate Espresso. So it's got browned butter, white chocolate chips and espresso powder. So it's like having, like I've been trying to recreate the taste of chocolate I had at Hotel chocolate one time. It was a white chocolate, coffee and hazelnut That sounds nice, truffle, and it was the best thing I've ever eaten. And I've been chasing that high ever since.

Zoe Davey  
I'm salivating little bit, just hearing...

Caitlin S  
I don't know if they sell it anymore, if I just haven't looked for it properly. But it was my favourite thing I've ever had. And so white chocolate, coffee, a little bit of cinnamon or hazelnut is like my favourite flavour combination.

Zoe Davey 
Wow, come at me. Come at me with it. When you finish, what's your favourite voiceover thing you've done that? 

Caitlin S
That one's hard.

Zoe Davey  
Why?

Caitlin S  
Because, like, I like, Okay, I would say my favourite is working with Lego

Zoe Davey  
Okay, 

Caitlin S  
Because, and it's not just one project. I've worked with them for a couple of years now, and I think, yeah, okay, they're my favourite because I've worked with them for a little while. It's the same team every time, I always work with the same director. His name is Remy, 

Caitlin S  
Remy the Rat?

Caitlin S 
He's very much a man, right? I'm sure there's a ratatouille in a Lego set somewhere. 

Caitlin S 
Lego set there must be. 

Caitlin S   
They're always like they're my favourite because it's it's all educational content for kids. Most of it is and it's written so well. The director is always so clear on what we need to accomplish, and it's just a great time. We do it over video calls each time. I have some more coming up in August and October this year, and they're just great to work with, and they keep having me back, which I'm so grateful for. And I get to see the little videos at the end where, and it's all done in Lego, which is, 

Zoe Davey 
Wait, are you know, like a little Lego person?

Caitlin S  
I'm like the narrator guy yet, but we talked about that. Yeah, let me see if I can work that into my contract.

Zoe Davey  
Please do - and a little greyhound!

Caitlin S  
But, yeah, we talk about the environment and climate change, and the one we're working on currently is about how to make places accessible. So if someone say, someone who has a seeing and sight impairment, vision impairment, that's the word. I was like, there's a word, there's a word. Yeah, someone's visually impaired. What about this public park could we do to help them enjoy their experience there? Even better, and it talks about how they can put Braille on the map, and they can put different textured walkways and stuff so people know where they're going 

Zoe Davey  
And that's what Lego do?

Caitlin S  
So it's educational videos to help kids start learning about stuff like that.

Zoe Davey  
That's cool. 

Caitlin S  
And then the idea is they want the kids to get involved. They were like, We need your ideas, because you're a person with great thoughts that should become, you know, things. And yeah, it's encouraging them through play to sort of think about real world, not real world issues, but ways we can make the world better for everyone, from, like, a child's point of view, 

Zoe Davey  
And they have great ideas as well, wild and wacky ones. 

Caitlin S  
Yeah, it's I like Lego did a segment on TV once with it was comedians sat down with kids to, like, build Lego and talk about issues in the world, and their responses were fantastic. But yeah, that's my favourite.

Zoe Davey  
Beautiful, lovely. The second one is still to do with that. What were the biggest challenges that you faced on that project? If there were any?

Caitlin S  
I just say whatever challenges come up, working in voiceover in general, just things like, sometimes you've said a sentence so many times you can't think of any other way to say it, and no one else in the chat can either. But like you all, it's when you know you're not getting it right, but like you've exhausted all other options, but at the same time, you do always get there in the end. So I guess it's just the challenge is, especially with these texts, the challenge was to not make it too pandering to kids to you never want to talk down to them. So it was striking the balance between having enough emoting and undulation in the voice and to make it interesting to listen to and keep the child's attention, but also you don't want to become sing songy, or you don't be Miss Rachel, or you don't want because there are some that are targeted towards older kids too. So, but what's great is when we when we nail it, everyone in the room goes, Yep, that was it. Let's just do that 16 more times. But, yeah, I would say that's maybe the hardest part, but even, but you will come across that, no matter what project you do, you always get there in the end, so.

Zoe Davey
Beautiful. I love that you use the word undulating as well. 

Caitlin S
I don't even know. I knew that word.

Zoe Davey  9:54  
I might shut the window. Yeah, we might die in here. But just in case, I don't know. In case. I can't edit cars out because I only want to hear you. Yeah, that's fair. And for some reason today, the street be my streets. 

Caitlin S  
Normally dead quiet. 

Zoe Davey  
If we get a snoring dog, I see you snoozing. Oh, snooze.

Zoe Davey 
She's back, right. Let's go to question number three. Okay, so this could be a trick question. It's not um, how do you push through on a hard day? 

Caitlin S
It's hard on a hard day. I don't know. I really just have to, like, remember, it's not always going to feel like this. That's the big thing. Is, everything is temporary, right? The good stuff and the bad stuff. So I like to acknowledge that and then move from that place of it's not going to be like this forever. So if you can just carry on, and then if I can take a moment to stop and look at what I'm doing and simplify it, because something's happening, like, I'm very I fall into the trap of, like, making things more complicated than they need to be, because then I'm like, but then I could do this and then, but if I do this, I have to do this, and then I have to do and that's where I think I you know, I don't help myself, because then you get frustrated, and then your energy is up here, and you're just, you get, you know what I mean. So if I can stop and go. Actually, what has to be done? Which do I have to get done in the next hour, next few hours today? Oftentimes I can cut away whatever dumb stuff I was doing and just refocus back in and then sometimes I have to say, You know what? It's not getting done today, and that's okay, yeah. And you have to give yourself a lot of grace. But at the end of the day, would you rather put forward a product that you feel good about, or would you rather rush through something and not be happy with it, and then have to put it out. And then you're like, I know I could have done that better, which sometimes that's not always popular. You have to just do it if it was shit because. And oftentimes, you know, you'll get feedback that was shit, and you'll go, I know that's okay, but yeah, on a really hard day, have more coffee also. I'll be like everything's falling apart. Coffee Break. Let's add caffeine to this fire.

Zoe Davey 
Yeah, I agree with that one. Amazing number four, how do you know when, oh, it goes on nicely? How do you know when it's time to take a break?

Caitlin S 
I thought if I've started cursing at myself, like, I don't want to be too expletive on your channel. 

Zoe Davey  
It's alright. Did you hear Chloe? She's like 'can I swear?' and I'm like 'Absolutely - go ahead'

Caitlin S
It's when I'm like 'fuck this'. I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want to be a voiceover. I don't want to do and I like, crash out. Basically, that's when I know now I shouldn't let it get to that point. But because I'm so much like, I will just put my head down, and if, even if, like, something's upsetting me or whatever, I will just keep going. Because I'll be like, if I can just get through this. But it's never just No, if there's always something else, 

Zoe Davey
Something else is coming.

Caitlin S
And then, yeah, then I'm like, I want to throw my laptop window.

Zoe Davey
So that's like, that's the end of your thermometer. Okay, I'm done. What do you think your mid thermometer is? You know what the warning sign is there to be, like, I should take a break. 

Caitlin S 
It's when I've like, I've like, dropped, if I'm baking, I've dropped something, and I get unreasonably angry. That should be my warning sign of, let's take a moment thanks. Get out of the kitchen because it's hot and you're sweaty and you're not allowed to open the windows because it's against health and safety code, like, go pet your dog, yes, and then wash your hands. And then you can get back to it that, yeah, when something very minor certainly happens and you get so unreasonably fucked off that's the warning sign.

Zoe Davey    
I agree. It's not that I'm baking. But if you're, like, in your kitchen, if you had, 'are you doing these things?' And that's just a picture of you like -swears aggressively at oven- at a cake - if you're doing that, then-

Caitlin S 
 I've done that to my oven. Like. 

Caitlin S
Take a break, because what is it? What is it you're making?

Caitlin S  
A cookie; which is meant to be full of love and enjoy?

Zoe Davey  
They could tell that you're baking the hate in. Imagine.

Caitlin S 
Someone's like this taste, this taste..

Zoe Davey
I'm getting "annoyed". Number five, what made you say yes to the first opportunity that you got? So either or both, whichever.

Caitlin S  
Um voiceover I remember, I guess the first opportunity was from Matt. Matt's my husband, and he was already working as a voiceover artist, and we picked the flat we were in in London because it had a closet that he was like, I'm gonna turn this into I'm gonna get in there. I hadn't seen the apartment, and I just had to trust him that this is going to be really worthwhile. And he was right. It was. It became a major source of income for us both during the pandemic. So we moved in, literally the day that my work in London shut down because of COVID. Yeah, we were like, well, I guess we're here. But a few months before that, Matt had said, I think you'd be really good at voiceover, 

Zoe Davey 
He was right.

Caitlin S 
And at the time, at the time, I had no concept of voiceover beyond video games and audio books, and I do both of those things now, but at the time, I was like, well, I won't be good at that, because I can't do the different accents. I can't do the different funny voices, which you know, Matt can like to a very high degree of skill as well. So that was my only frame of reference. But so when he was like, No, you can there are commercials you can do. There are e learning modules. Like, there's telephone. It's called IVR. Like, if you call someone and you go, Hello, welcome to Google, or whatever.

Zoe Davey
This I was just thinking, because there's so many times that you hear a pre recorded thing that you don't even pay attention to you, like you get on the tube and it's like,

Zoe Davey
Yeah, that's a person. Yes. You get on the light, yeah, although there was a really big scandal with royal Scotland rail. Oh, it's a whole thing. They paid for an AI model of a voice, a Scottish voice actress, to so they paid the company. They took the model from. They did not pay her, and she found out, because She heard herself on the train. Not only that, oh my god, it's bad. It sounds shit. And she's like, Not only have I been snubbed of money, and someone's closed my voice without my permission. Everyone's complaining that I sound shit, and it's not me.

Zoe Davey  
It's like some black mirror stuff. She's on a thing, and you hear your own voice. 

Caitlin S 
And that's what's so hard right now, is there's really no legislation to help her. Equity is trying really hard, but at the end of the day, Scottish rail doesn't think they've done anything wrong because they paid the AI voice model company and the voice model,

Zoe Davey 
They know they've done wrong. They're just not admitting to it. 

Caitlin S  
That's just it. And if, personally, in my opinion, if you saw what you did was wrong, it would say a lot more about your company. If you because she was like, hit me up. If you want me to re record it, you'll have to pay me, obviously, but I will be willing to work with you. They, they should probably take that offer if I want this. But, um, yeah, anyway, the opportunity, what were we talking about

Zoe Davey    
I think it was the first opportunity. So Matt bought a closet. Yeah, you got in it.

Caitlin S  
So that set up the booth in the closet. But he also, for my birthday, paid for me to get some demo reels done, which was honestly the best thing he's ever done for me. Besides, you know,

Zoe Davey   
Marry you.

Caitlin S
Besides that, he which demo reel is basically examples of you doing so I have a commercial one. It's me doing different types of commercials. I'm a narrative one, which is like me doing, there's an audio book at the end. There's like, don't tell the bride an excerpt to see what you would sound like. 

Zoe Davey  
What a programme

Caitlin S  
I loved it. So, yeah, I had, I did those two, and he paid for them, and I worked with a great guy named Nick. He doesn't do them anymore, but I think he still is in the audio production world in general, which is great because he's got a great gift for it. He became very high in demand shortly after that, and his rates went through the roof. But I set up a Fiverr account. I applied to a bunch of voice agencies. And I got my first job through Fiverr in October of 2020, and it was for a company called Fi-serve. I remember this, and they're just a financial company, um, they just needed a short video to have on their website. And I did it, and I sent it to him. And this guy. Was like, You should be charging way more for what you're offering. And that was the moment I was like, Oh, I thought might be good at this. And I'm so serious, it just exploded from there. And it was like, I could, you know, quit my job at the hair salon I was working at, and I felt really aligned with what I was doing for the first time ever. It was fantastic. Like, who knew you could make money doing something you like?!

Zoe Davey 
Talking, just talking about reading and talking.

Caitlin S  
I learned. It's a skill. Like, although sometimes you would think, I don't know how to read based off of my outtakes or that stuff that gets edited out, Matt will leave little notes for me when, if I used to ask Matt, I used to pay Matt to edit my audio books because I was bad at it, and he would leave me nice little notes, like, did you have a stroke?

Zoe Davey    
That is not a 'nice little note'.

Caitlin S   
Or, Oh, I see you were drinking the good wine this evening in places where I need to, needed to go back and edit the voice. But very funny. It's love 

Zoe Davey
That's love. 

Caitlin S  
That is love. 

Zoe Davey  
What about cookies? 

Caitlin S  
Um, I think I've made a bunch of cookies for it was when I make I make cookies for Christmas every year, and I was gluten free for a long time. Sucks. Don't recommend it if you don't have to do it, if you don't have to. But I found a gluten free cookie recipe my almond chocolate and cookies that everyone's obsessed with. And I was like, Oh, I wonder. But at the time, I was like, it would be way too expensive to have to make every cookie gluten free. So I was like, so if people want them, they can just ask me maybe take 10 pounds from them or whatever for parties or whatever. But it was when I was no longer gluten free, like, I had the blood test done and everything. It opened up a whole new world of baking opportunities. And that's when I was like, maybe I could sell cookies. I could give this a go. And, yeah, it's been nice. Like, I think the first so last year was the first year that I did it, and it was fantastic. I've had a lot of support from my friends and family, and I did a bunch of markets and stuff, and I very much lost a lot of money doing it sometimes, but the first year in business doing anything, I think, is a learning experience. And I learned, I sort of was able to discern what sort of events are worth my time. Yeah, how to prioritize ingredients, for example, and where I get them, when to bulk buy, when not to bulk buy. But also, like the first year in business, there's a lot of upfront costs, like the public liability insurance. So my whole market stall set up, um, printing business cards and stuff. But this year, I'm much more focused on scaling it back, supplying to like people local to us, to like the Berliner, and then with Lucy's coffee stall that's coming up and doing markets that I am now a regular at, and I have regulars come see me, and it's so satisfying. There's this one gentleman that comes and buys my shortbread at the I uh, at the my god, I'm there every month. I can't remember name, but there's a market up in Derby. You went, Oh, it's the one you and Harriet came to visit Alfreton. 

Zoe Davey  
Alfreton.

Caitlin S
 I was like, it's not Alberton, alphyston, Alfreton. And he's there every market, bright and early, ready for that shortbread. It makes me so happy.

Zoe Davey
We love Shortbread Man.

Caitlin S  
But yeah, so kind of long story short, I could eat gluten again. That was when I knew

Zoe Davey 
And life just took off after that

Zoe Davey 
Beautiful right? What do you think? This is my favourite one. What do you think little you would say about the work that you're doing now?

Caitlin S   
Oh, she would think it was cool, especially so like, when I was little, I was doing drama and theatre and stuff. Since I was like, eight, nine, I would think she would think it was cool. So I still got to do that, but I didn't have to leave my house. I could still tell stories and like, be creative and stuff without having to go anywhere. Sometimes I do, obviously, but the cookie thing. Like, I was always, like, obsessed with learning how to make things, to the point where, like, I was trying to learn how to cook, or not even cook, I was just putting things together, and I thought it would make something nice. I mixed orange juice and milk once, because I thought it would taste like an orange creamsicle popsicle, no? Like, why not?

Caitlin S  
It's baking powder, right?

Caitlin S    
Like, thankfully, eventually, my aunt Denise taught me. She was like, here's something called a recipe, and we're gonna follow this out.

Caitlin S  
Thank you Denise.

Caitlin S 
 So, yeah, to think that I used to bring cupcakes to school. And whenever it was Anyone's birthday, I would get their request for what flavour they wanted. And a cupcake

Zoe Davey   
This is so you know, it is me now, which is all those cookies to Amy's Hen Do.

Caitlin S  
I just because I, like, I can't believe I'm making any money off of it, because it's something I like doing. It doesn't feel like work. Sometimes it does when I'm prepping for a market and like, it takes, I've gotten to a good system now where I can prep the dough up to three days ahead of time, because I now I have a separate business fridge thanks to my wonderful husband, who saw it on the street and said, That's ours.

Zoe Davey  
It's been cleaned thoroughly. 

Caitlin S  
To be honest, it was in pretty good condition. It was from our neighbour down the street. He Matt saw him getting rid of it, and he was like, Is that mine? I'll help you carry it into your house. And I'm like, great,

Zoe Davey    
He's a little Scavenger. 

Caitlin S  
Yeah, I have a system now that is more helpful, so I'm not spending 12 hours in my sweltering kitchen. I can get it down to about three now that's That's amazing, which it involves, like, prepping the dough over the course of the days leading up to it and then baking it all the day before, so that it's packed and ready to go. But even just that is so much more helpful, because then I can take stuff in and out of the oven and be prepping other things, like getting the stall ready and stuff. But yeah, I think little me would think it's pretty cool. 

Zoe Davey
I love that. What an amazing answer I wasn't expecting that. Um, number seven, what do you wish more people knew about the process behind your work

Caitlin S   
For baking?

Zoe Davey   
What you've just talked about.

Zoe Davey    
The amount, it's the amount of time that goes into it in prep. But also, because I have people come up to my stall and go, Oh, I made cookies with my kids. And I'm like, That's so great. I'm I'm really happy for you, like, you should keep doing that, but also that it's the same thing. And I'm like, Yeah, at the very basic idea of it, it is the same thing, and you're doing it because everyone bakes with their not everyone, but people bake with their kids as a fun activity to have something yummy at the end. It's an experience to share with people, but when they use that as a reason to justify not buying something from my stall, it's 

Zoe Davey   
Like, do you hit them with that? And I've had a person come around my house and assess my entire kitchen  for cleanliness.

Caitlin S 
Right?! But I don't have boogers in my cookies.

Zoe Davey  
Made with love too, but without the snot.

Caitlin S 
Without the children getting their hands in there. But it's just like I am happy for you, but if you think that your pre made cookie dough mix is going to taste the same as what I make, which, to be honest, that's why I started doing cookies, because cookies here in the UK, no offense, are very much one thing, and I prefer so cookie some people, everyone has different preferences, and my idea was to make cookies that I like because I didn't see them anywhere. For me, when you get the really massive ones that are trendy right now, in order to have them keep their height, people freeze them, and then after a certain point, you can do that with great results. But at a certain point it really starts to go dry and it's crumbly, which is fine. It's all preference. It's just not why preference? And the ones that you can get for a pound from Asda, I love them. They're great. But again, they're not soft. They're very much chewy, which is great, a great texture, and I love it. But I really wanted the types of cookies that I make that are a reasonable size, a reasonable amount of fillings, and you can actually taste what's in it like it's not the massive cookie pies that are part brownie, part cookie, part Malteser cake type thing, and I wanted them to taste like someone I cared about making them for you.

Zoe Davey  
And they do!

Which I really hope so even to the point where I recently experimented with using cheaper ingredients and it worked and they tasted fine

Zoe Davey  
But you don't want fine.

Caitlin S 
I don't want fine; I don't feel good about selling something that I think is just fine so even though it costs more. I want to stick to the ingredients that I know work give me consistent results and yield a better end product. Because I want it to taste like someone has put thought into what they are eating, even if it's not calorie friendly, is not sugar friendly.

Zoe Davey  
That's not why I'm buying a cookie. I'm buying a cookie for the experience!

Caitlin S   
You'd be surprised. I had a woman go, Oh, are these organic. And I just was like, I'd be charging six pounds of cookie if they were organic, you know what I mean. But yeah, I wish people would realize there is a level of difference between I'm sure some people do go buy the pre made cookie mixes and try to sell them, and I wish them great success. But, yeah, I think that's the main difference.

Zoe Davey    
Well, that's your unique point, isn't it? It's like, you're putting what you love out into the world. And there are other people who love that too, and they're gonna find it and be like, yeah, this is just like I want!

Caitlin S   
And it's like, can you buy short growth from the shop? Yes.

Zoe Davey  
Yeah. But do you have a personal connection with the person who's selling it, who you turn up to the market stalls to get that shortbread, right? No,

Caitlin S  
I've been really looking into what else I can sell on the stall. And I really want to start doing jams and preserves and stuff, which there is, like a level of preservation I need to keep in mind, like I might need to get, like, a mini fridge or something, but

Zoe Davey  
Get Matt out in the street.

Caitlin S    
He's, you give him a mission. He's like, bet they'll be on Facebook marketplace for it'll take him two days. Yeah. But so I was thinking, like, no one like, you can buy strawberry jam from the shop. Then I was like, yes, you can,

Zoe Davey 
People buy it for the story,

Caitlin S  
Right? But also people, the type of person that wants to buy fresh jam cares that it was made by a person in their kitchen using fresh ingredients and using minimal ingredients. There's a big push for that at the moment. It's like, yeah, they people want things, and it's also convenient. That means that person didn't have to spend three hours making jam, they can just buy mine. So, yeah, with Voice Over, I do wish people knew that. I don't know it's hard with, like, the rise of AI voice and stuff, because that very much is trying to say you are like a robot could do your job, yeah? And it's like, yeah, they can. But we're seeing that people don't want it, 

Zoe Davey  
No.

Caitlin S  
And the argument that I've heard is a row, robot can make sounds that sounds like the words of your script, and they can copy a cadence that it's copying from a real person, but you will never be able to replicate. Every person has their own point of view. They've lived their own life. They have their own perspective on things, which means every person that reads a script is going to come at it totally differently. And that's what's special, is you've lived a whole life up to this point that will inform how you interpret a piece of text, even if I'm selling. One of my favorite clients is a sex toy brand. They're fantastic. I love working with them, and I like them because they make sex like a very it's not taboo. It's not like this spicy thing. It is very much just like a like the neutrality of like a Siri type. It's it's very much just like a normalized this is our product. This is how you use it. Their tagline. The tagline is, we wish you lots of love and happy masturbation.

Zoe Davey 
You just said to yourself 10 years ago, and like drama school, you're gonna do this, what would you have said?!

Caitlin S  
But yeah, that's, I guess that's my point. Is a robot could say your script, but how do you care about other people caring about your product? Because the my brain just switches off when I hear a fake voice.

Zoe Davey  
You can tell and even if you can't, and then you find out, you feel like you've been had, and you're like, hmm. You get this icky feeling.

Caitlin S 
And that's the thing, is, there's a time and place for everything, including AI voices, but I don't know if you really and a lot of like clients I speak to their their thing is they care. They want people to care about their brand, because that's how they make money. 

Zoe Davey  
And like, you've spoken about Lego and this sex toy brand, and like, the relationships you're having on a business to business level, you're building that with another person to, like, I don't know that's just really cool. And like, with AI, if they'd have decided to go with that instead, they wouldn't have that, right? And. You wouldn't be able to have that like rapport and new ideas from a human perspective. I don't know

Caitlin S   
That's just it. And you're so right. The direct ability of AI voices is so limited because you can go, No, put the emphasis on this word, but then it's like, you're right. You're not having that. There are so many times I'm in a live session with someone and they can't articulate exactly what they're trying to say to give me direction, but I know what they're saying, yes. And it's because we have that shared, lived experience that I'm like, I know exactly

Zoe Davey  
What you're saying. You're having an unspoken conversation. Yeah, yeah. And it's like,

Caitlin S  
You can't do that with robots. I really hope we don't get to the point where I can have an unspoken conversation with the robot. Conversation with a robot. I'm not interested.

Zoe Davey  
Yeah. Can you believe we made it to the end question? It's gonna take me about eight hours to download it. But it'll be worth it! We didn't have to do a reading, right? -to Cooper - Excuse you sir, big strange pose at the end, I'll turn the camera around. Is there a moment in your creative journey that changed everything? If there isn't, that's okay too,

Caitlin S  
You know what? Because I, when I was reading these questions, this was the one that I had an answer for first, 

Zoe Davey 
Nice and goosebumps. 

Caitlin S   
It was when I realized everyone is making everything up, right? Everyone pulling stuff out of their ass, money like terms they we are all making it up as we go along. 

Zoe Davey  
Amazing answer

Caitlin S  
There, especially in terms of money, there are industry guidelines for where you might feel like, yeah, there is an accepted industry guideline for what you might charge for a certain project. But even that, you don't have to it just is there to give you a good idea of what the going rate is, but even within that is your own personal well, how what do I How much money do I need to make off of this to feel it was a worthwhile project to take on, to take up my time, and because we're all trading time for money, yes, so you have to be really okay with the amount of money you're receiving for the time you're giving up. And that number will be different for everybody. But, and of course, like it's not always been like, super straightforward, things fluctuate. The economy fluctuates. What people are willing to pay fluctuates, but as long as you can say to yourself, I'm I'm getting paid for my unique perspective and my skill set, and I'm willing to give up this much of my time for this much money, as long as you're comfortable with that. That's the right number like, and of course, you, I think you need to be working within an industry long enough to have that sense of because I could go in that I could quote everyone $5 million for every project, and that feels great. But a lot of clients go no no. So I think you get a sense of, like, knowing, yeah, because it's also, like I said, everything's made up. They people that ask you for your quote don't know what you're gonna say. 

Zoe Davey 
They might have a number in mind. 

Caitlin S   
They might have a number in mind.

Zoe Davey    
But they are too making that number up!

Caitlin S   
Exactly 

Caitlin S 
somebody else's made their number? Yep, everything's made up. In the moment I realized that everyone is faking it till they make it, I relaxed a lot, yeah, because I used to put so much pressure on myself through like, I have to know what to do. I have to know. 

Zoe Davey  
But no, the thing is, no one is gonna tell you. No one's gonna tell you, especially when you work for yourself. 

Caitlin S  
That's just it. And like, I've had to get good to get good, I'm gonna get good. I've had to get good at not knowing, at making best guesstimates, at doing the best that I can with the information I have. And then when I get new information, I can do better, or I can change what I'm doing, or whatever. But that was a very freeing moment

Zoe Davey  
Is that was, is that mainly with the voiceover stuff, then even baking like?

Caitlin S  
That's why I lost money at one point. 

Zoe Davey  
You were putting orange and milk together. Now... you're putting other stuff together but it works now!

Caitlin S  
There's more ingredients 

Zoe Davey 
Because there was a little bit of a recipe, but you don't have to follow it, right, beautiful.

Caitlin S 
So the thing with baking is there are overhead costs that you have to you should know a lot before you start charging people. And that's why I lost money in my first year, because I was used to making numbers up. So. That was your charging. But if you can get, if you're going into something like that, if you can get someone who knows about overhead and numbers in that sense, and can tell you what you should be charging to make your cost worth it, please do so find them. You can just vibe it out like I did, but just be prepared. You're gonna lose money. But yeah, even that, once you hit that threshold of, okay, this is the number that I need to be charging to make any money to go up from there, you make it up. You just like, and then obviously people then scale up. They can afford new machinery and new premises and whatever, whatever. But that's not my goal with um cookies. My mom keeps saying, oh, you should open your own like, bake shop. Like, no, because bakers get up at 3am and bake friends. 

Zoe Davey  
You said, No, you'll be happy that you can work from home,

Caitlin S  
And I can read my books and walk my dog and do whatever I want, but Yeah,

Zoe Davey  
Beautiful. What a wonderful interview. Thank you. Thanks for saying yeah. Thanks for having a little chat. It was nice, beautiful, lovely answers, where can, where can people find you? Where can they track you down?

Caitlin S  
In my house doing nothing

Zoe Davey  
No, don't come and find her in our house. This is where you can find her instead.

Caitlin S    
For voiceover, I have a website. CaitlinSloanvo.com that's VO, as in voiceover. I will put it in the description. Or if you want some cookies, Cooper's Cookies is on Facebook. There's, which I've learned, there's a lot of Cooper's cookies on Facebook.

Zoe Davey   
Not this Cooper's cookies. 

Caitlin S  
We're the one. We've got the blue logo that says Cooper's cookies.

Zoe Davey  
Beautiful. Thank you. Now we're gonna show you him, because the man who didn't wanna, he didn't want to join in during but here he is. 

Caitlin S 
He's dreaming.

Zoe Davey 
He's fully asleep, fully conked out. Thank you so much for watching 42 minutes. Okay, we're gonna press the button and pray now that it worked.